PCN from CPMS in Manchester

James_Howlett

Hi All,

I've read through the **NEWBIES!! guide as I've received a PCN from CPMS Manchester.

I've parked in this spot outside my friends flat in Manchester centre a few times which is right next to a CPMS sign but I was worried the first time yet after nothing happened I've used it a couple more times. This happened about 10 days ago, I've been waiting for payday to just pay the £60 charge but thought I'd check here first which led to me finding this:

The latest advice is, in the case of AOS MEMBERS ONLY, appeal online or by email at around day 20 after a windscreen ticket but as the KEEPER, not driver, using the template below.

Do I even have a leg to stand on considering I was right in front of a CPMS sign or should I just pay the £60 before it turns into £100?

My wife is the registered keeper and I don't want any debt collectors coming round demanding she pay them.


Thanks!

Herzlos

Use all the usual points, as you've got plenty legs to stand on. The signage (which you saw) was most likely non-compliant - could you read and understand all of it?
It's unlikely CPMS has any actual authority to issue tickets, and the level for the ticket is grossly disproportionate.

No debt collectors will come round, you'll just get a few letters.

Ralph-y

I think you need to read the newbies thread again as you have not fully understood

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/4816822

"I don't want any debt collectors coming round demanding she pay them."

there is more chance that I will call round to demand a free pint for this information :rotfl:

"Do I even have a leg to stand on considering I was right in front of a CPMS " is the sign legal? do they have authority? have they followed procedures?

and much more ....... while you await the NTK or the 20 day wait .... then have another read through .... I know there is a lot ... so read a bit at a time till you understand then read the next bit

Ralph:cool:

James_Howlett

a). The sum is disproportionate, does not represent a genuine pre-estimate of loss, nor is it a core price term.
b). The sum is extravagant and unconscionable and cannot be justified.
c). There is no evidence that you have any interest in the land. I will complain to the landowner about your aggressive ticketing.
d). Your 'Notice' fails to comply with the POFA so there can be no keeper liability.
e). I believe that the signs were not seen/are ambiguous and the predominant purpose is to deter so there is no contract to pay this charge, which is a penalty

So you don't need a defence along the lines of, the signage wasn't present etc, you argue it on the grounds of the sum?

You can also disagree with it because they can't prove the same person who parked the car there is the same person who they send a letter to (the keeper) due to the Protection of Freedom Act.

Can anyone explain how 'd).' above works please?

Herzlos

You can appeal on the basis that the signage is insufficient, and that the charge is unreasonable.

James_Howlett wrote: »

Can anyone explain how 'd).' above works please?

The Protection Of Freedom Act 2012 has very specific requirements in order for the Registered Keeper to be liable for the invoice, and none of the PPC's have actually managed to satisfy them yet. Ergo the invoice is invalid.

James_Howlett

That's great thanks, time to fight the system I guess!

James_Howlett

I've just received a response from CPMS, I believe I'm at this stage now:

- if this is an IPC member parking firm, the point of appealing is merely for the keeper to 'appear reasonable' by stating their case and complaining to the retailers/landowners, in an attempt to get it cancelled. But if that does not work you will get a rejection letter from the parking firm offering IAS. DO NOT BOTHER WITH SECOND STAGE APPEAL IF POPLA IS NOT OFFERED, JUST SOAK UP THE DEBT COLLECTOR LETTERS KNOWING YOU'VE STATED YOUR CASE AND ONLY START A NEW THREAD IF YOUR PPC (not debt collector) SENDS A 'LETTER BEFORE CLAIM' OR STARTS A CLAIM.

I can't try the landlord, it's not a shopping centre or such it's an apartment complex.

To summarise the email, it says: The signage was adequate, we've extended the discount duration to 15/10/15 and I can appeal through IAS (which of course we don't do).

I guess I'm at the ignore the letters point? Waiting for NTK is only when a PPC is a member of the BPA / AOS?

WE WIN AT POPLA APPEAL STAGE, IF NOT EARLIER.

Does the above mean you'll probably end up paying if the PPC is IPC and not AOS because IPC doesn't offer POPLA?

I just want to confirm I've understood the newbies guide correctly?


Thanks again

Redx

appealing to the IAS is your choice , either you do (even if they subsequently reject the appeal), or you dont

if you appeal and lose, or if you dont appeal, you are in IGNORE mode unless you receive an LBC or an MCOL from the PPC within the next 6 years

these are IPC members so there is no popla

as they are IPC members (there are only 2 trade bodies) then the IAS is their equivalent of popla (forget about the BPA and popla, its nothing to do with them)

think of this as like complaining to ASDA when in fact you should be talking to TESCO, both are supermarkets but neither takes in the others goods or services

an NTK must be sent to an RK within certain time limits if they wish to use POFA 2012 against the keeper , otherwise they fail and this is a defence point (nothing to do with the BPA or the IPC) for either the IAS , or court , or both

this NTK should arrive between day 29 and day 56 of the parking event if they wish to hold the RK liable

EITHER YOU PAY BECAUSE YOU WANT TO

OR YOU PAY BECAUSE A JUDGE SAYS SO !

so if you lost in court you have 28 days to pay the judgment by the court, or it can become an UNSETTLED debt and a CCJ usually follows

or it "times out" after 6 years

James_Howlett

Thanks for the response Redx. I forgot to thank you when you first posted, apologies!

I've just received a debt reclamation letter (i.imgur.com/3UMLEx1.jpg). This isn't an LBC is it?

So I'm still at the point of waiting for the LBC to come through.

As a side note, is there any simple way I can find out who is the landlord of the property (apartments in town centre) so I can just message them and apologise to see if this works? I've tried Googling but no joy.

Castle

James_Howlett wrote: »

I've just received a debt reclamation letter (i.imgur.com/3UMLEx1.jpg). This isn't an LBC is it?

So I'm still at the point of waiting for the LBC to come through.

As a side note, is there any simple way I can find out who is the landlord of the property (apartments in town centre) so I can just message them and apologise to see if this works? I've tried Googling but no joy.

It's just another Debt Collector letter from DRP which is not a LBC since that has to come from the parking company or their Solicitors.
Question 1; Which Parking company is shown on the letter? (Exact name please)
Question 2: Did you ever get a NTK?

As to the landlord; perhaps you could ask your friend to find out!

James_Howlett

Hey thanks for replying.

1. CPMS Manchester - cpmsmanchester.com
2. I'm sure we did but I'm at work at the moment and can't double check