Corbynomics: A Dystopia

Alan_Brown

Moby wrote: »

For what record?:rotfl:

That cracked me up.

I think that sometimes it's forgotten that we're chatting with strangers on obscure forums. It's interesting to the people involved, but it aint the houses of parliament and we won't be quoted on the news.

Funnily enough, this feeds back to my point. The delusion of wealth also has an element of delusion of importance. Those who share the 'small state' viewpoint of the elite are made to feel more important than those with an alternate view. Anyone who believes in more socialistic principles is ridiculed and mocked, and their viewpoint dismissed.

westernpromise

Moby wrote: »

Cynon Valley is state dependent because of a former large population which serviced industry now having to live in a post industrial landscape.
Should the people of Cynon Valley just get on their bikes and ride them to wherever there are jobs. How trite!

Should the state tax other people in order to create replacement jobs in Cynon Valley so the poor widdle pweciouses aren't put to the inconvenience of moving? No it bl00dy should not.

westernpromise

Alan_Brown wrote: »

Not really but if it makes you feel better to use personal attacks than to discuss things rationally then go for it.

Well if you are a millionaire who doesn't need any of the state benefit systems (which includes the NHS, etc.) then good for you. It does beg the question of why you're on a moneysaving website and why you feel it necessary to pour scorn on those less financially fortunate than yourself?

A mere £159k a year got you into the top 1% in 2013-4.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/503396/Table_3_1a_14.xlsx

You're in the top 3%. Khorbiyn is coming for your money, so he can give it away to lifestyle dolies in Labour constituencies. Khorbiyn's in the top 2% but somehow I can't see him including himself in his class war. After all, he's said himself he's not rich.

CLAPTON

Moby wrote: »

For what record?:rotfl:
Personal responsibility is necessary but there is a world of difference between that and condemning people as malingerers like you are. Environment is crucial to circumstances and social mobility. A middle class kid attending a private school and with interested parents gets far more life chances than the deprived kid in Cynon Valley. Like you said yourself the kid in Cynon Valley is probably being raised in circumstances where their parents dont work and dont have contacts on the grape vine to encourage their kids. Some escape by using their background as an incentive but most dont. They end up in crime, on drugs, in prison, pregnant young etc etc because they know no better. When born they are just like you and me....not genetically predisposed to failure....but then life happens and for many..... life aint good. Understanding is what's needed.....not condemning.

it appears that lots of people from all over the world, who don't have contacts, manage to make it to London and get a job.

MobileSaver

Alan_Brown wrote: »

Is the answer really that those young enough to move away and get jobs should do so, leaving everyone else in a post-industrial ghost town?

So your view is that everyone else in the country should support the inhabitants of all the tiny villages in the Valley so that they and their kids and their kids etc. never have to leave their home village to find work. They can all live there to eternity, everything paid for by the State, regardless of the fact that there are almost zero prospects of work in the local areas?

Alan_Brown wrote: »

Do you believe that we should demolish the welfare state in order to prevent a small minority of people from misusing it?

No.

MobileSaver wrote:

genuinely in need through no fault of their own.

Moby wrote: »

Do all you 'right thinking people' have a measure by which you assess who is at fault and who deserves the largesse from your table?

Do you think the State should support people who are not genuinely in need?

westernpromise

Moby wrote: »

Luckily for society generally some of us try to understand and help those less fortunate by generously giving away other people's money and not expecting these people to lift a finger to help themselves. You should try it sometime instead of condemning.

Fixed that for you.

You're very badly on the wrong side of history on this, you know. 6 times more people support the benefit cap than oppose it; 50% think benefits are too generous against 20% who think they're not generous enough.

I think the days of arrogantly voting yourself other people's money and snarling and sneering at the people who fund you are gone, actually.

Alan_Brown

MobileSaver wrote: »

So your view is that everyone else in the country should support the inhabitants of all the tiny villages in the Valley so that they and their kids and their kids etc. never have to leave their home village to find work. They can all live there to eternity, everything paid for by the State, regardless of the fact that there are almost zero prospects of work in the local areas?

Is Cynon Valley a tiny village?

antrobus

Alan_Brown wrote: »

Is Cynon Valley a tiny village?

It's a parliamentary constitiuency. Major towns; Aberdare and Mountain Ash.

TrickyTree83

Moby wrote: »

For what record?:rotfl:
Personal responsibility is necessary but there is a world of difference between that and condemning people as malingerers like you are. Environment is crucial to circumstances and social mobility. A middle class kid attending a private school and with interested parents gets far more life chances than the deprived kid in Cynon Valley. Like you said yourself the kid in Cynon Valley is probably being raised in circumstances where their parents dont work and dont have contacts on the grape vine to encourage their kids. Some escape by using their background as an incentive but most dont. They end up in crime, on drugs, in prison, pregnant young etc etc because they know no better. When born they are just like you and me....not genetically predisposed to failure....but then life happens and for many..... life aint good. Understanding is what's needed.....not condemning.

I used to live in Rhondda Cynon Taf. In places like Treforest, Cilfynydd, Trawlln (where I eventually claimed JSA myself!), Pontypridd and Rhydyfelin.

Those who choose to stay there make a personal choice to do so. If the local opportunities are limited (they are) there is nothing stopping people from moving from these areas in search of greater opportunity except themselves. I think I only know 2 people who remained in the area, and that's because they commute and have no kids.

Having worked evenings behind a bar in Trallwn, living behind a chip shop opposite the pub and collecting my post from the Spar next door, I can say that some there will be more than happy to claim and drink/smoke it away. Drugs, alcoholism and a benefit culture pervades the area. Having a kid at an early age is a method of income and again, a personal choice.

You say these people need helping. I would agree with you if we were not handing out money that they can spend as they wish. The Welsh Assembly would be better off spending the free prescription money to lower business rates and attract business and decent work into the area. Then dismantling the dependency on welfare and putting people back into well paid work.

Facilitating the issues that these areas suffer from by handing out money isn't solving these issues, and removing these programs will be massively unpopular for those who support them. So they're stuck in a cycle of never ending poverty because it's too easy on the welfare. People I knew on benefits there were going on holidays, had large flat screen TV's and the maintenance of their home paid for by the taxpayer.

Anyway, ultimately it is down to personal choice why people remain in these areas, remain on welfare and choose not to change that. Understanding is needed, empathy is not. Empathy will not solve the problems but a true understanding will. Coming on to an internet forum and virtue signalling that these people need help and therefore we shouldn't dismantle the system that's been perpetuating their problems for (to my knowledge) 10 years and counting doesn't count as solving their problems to me.

ruggedtoast

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

I used to live in Rhondda Cynon Taf. In places like Treforest, Cilfynydd, Trawlln (where I eventually claimed JSA myself!), Pontypridd and Rhydyfelin.

Those who choose to stay there make a personal choice to do so. If the local opportunities are limited (they are) there is nothing stopping people from moving from these areas in search of greater opportunity except themselves. I think I only know 2 people who remained in the area, and that's because they commute and have no kids.

Having worked evenings behind a bar in Trallwn, living behind a chip shop opposite the pub and collecting my post from the Spar next door, I can say that some there will be more than happy to claim and drink/smoke it away. Drugs, alcoholism and a benefit culture pervades the area. Having a kid at an early age is a method of income and again, a personal choice.

You say these people need helping. I would agree with you if we were not handing out money that they can spend as they wish. The Welsh Assembly would be better off spending the free prescription money to lower business rates and attract business and decent work into the area. Then dismantling the dependency on welfare and putting people back into well paid work.

Facilitating the issues that these areas suffer from by handing out money isn't solving these issues, and removing these programs will be massively unpopular for those who support them. So they're stuck in a cycle of never ending poverty because it's too easy on the welfare. People I knew on benefits there were going on holidays, had large flat screen TV's and the maintenance of their home paid for by the taxpayer.

Anyway, ultimately it is down to personal choice why people remain in these areas, remain on welfare and choose not to change that. Understanding is needed, empathy is not. Empathy will not solve the problems but a true understanding will. Coming on to an internet forum and virtue signalling that these people need help and therefore we shouldn't dismantle the system that's been perpetuating their problems for (to my knowledge) 10 years and counting doesn't count as solving their problems to me.

It takes decades to put down roots somewhere, and people are not by nature, peripatetic when they have children, or often ever.

But you believe in the in hordes of transient workers following the zero hour contracts around the country like 18th Century agricultural labourers.

Doffing their caps the the landed gentry in gratitude for not outsourcing their livelihoods to Malaysia for another year while capital is concentrated in an ever smaller number of hands.

This is the free market model that you espouse. Where Thatchers shut down industries that have existed for centuries to propagate an ideological battle against the working class, only to bribe them back with free houses and 24/7 propaganda from Sky TV insisting that they vote Tory forever,

On the other hand, the places you mention are among some of the bleakest locations on the planet and why anyone would want to persist living there is beyond me.