Failing to Provide Details

Stresshead2014

Aretnap wrote: »

There is no requirement to send you a reminder so the fact that you didn't get the reminder isn't much help to you.

Basically all you can do is go along and explain (with evidence if possible) that you believed that as you'd already provided the police with information on the change of ownership you (reasonably) assumed that they wouldn't need you to provide the same information a second time. With hindsight it was a bit silly of you to assume that the left hand would know what the right hand was doing, but there you go. While not a defence if you're lucky you might get a sympathetic prosecutor who will consider dropping the charge as not being in the public interest. That's probably about the best you can hope for.

This is basically my plan! Just confused as to the reference to a reminder in the Police Officer statement.


I will just be honest with the prosecutor and hope for leniency.


I do have the email thread to fall back on in which they described the matter as "moved on"


Without this excusing myself it did lead me to believe (along with the DVLA confirmation) that the matter was dealt with.


Looks like I'll have to take this one on the chin.

ChumLee

Stresshead2014 wrote: »

This is basically my plan! Just confused as to the reference to a reminder in the Police Officer statement.


I will just be honest with the prosecutor and hope for leniency.


I do have the email thread to fall back on in which they described the matter as "moved on"


Without this excusing myself it did lead me to believe (along with the DVLA confirmation) that the matter was dealt with.


Looks like I'll have to take this one on the chin.

Not for the matter going to court though.

Stresshead2014

ChumLee wrote: »

Not for the matter going to court though.

Correct but this was after the second NIP arrived and months before I heard anything about court action

stephenoldham

Stresshead2014 wrote: »

2 days later ANOTHER speeding ticket arrived along with the notice from the DVLA to state that the registered keeper had been changed. Admittedly I did not deal with this ticket as I felt sure that all the records had been updated now.

I received no reminder notices for either offence and assumed that the matter was closed.


I then received court papers stating that I was being prosecuted for failing to provide driver details, I returned the papers with a "not guilty" plea and explained the situation as above.

Where can I find out if the purchaser has been prosecuted? Surely if he has then there is no case for me to answer?


Will the court even listen to me or will they blindly pursue conviction?

Sorry Stresshead2014 it looks like you don't have a defence. I think that you have realised that you should just have sent the notice back naming the new keeper of the vehicle.

You might be lucky at court and get a sympathetic prosecutor who realises that you made a genuine mistake and that you weren't trying to avoid a prosecution for speeding yourself. Try to speak to them before the trial and explain what has happened. You never know they may drop the charge.

If the prosecutor will not drop the charges then you might be best pleading guilty the magistrates/judge will have no reason to acquit you.

Unfortunately the issue of whether the purchaser has been prosecuted will not really help.The question for the court will be "Did you reply to the notice?"

stephenoldham

Retrogamer wrote: »

If you were to state you never received the NIP, you would need to provide evidence, beyond reasonable doubt that this is likely to be true.

I don't think that he is saying that he didn't receive the NIP. You're right though, it would be a defence, but would only need to be proved on the balance of probabilities.

Joe_Horner

What date does DVLA show for the change of keeper? Is this before or after the alleged speeding offences? Note that it's the date of change that matters, not the date they made the change.

If DVLA have recorded the change of keeper as happening before (or possibly on the same date) as the speeding then your defence is simply that you were not the registered keeper at the time of the offence and the S.172 requirements don't apply. It doesn't matter if the administrative side of actually changing the records has taken time to catch up as long as you sorted the paperwork for the change correctly.

If DVLA have recorded the change as happening after the date of the speeding offence then S.172 does apply and you're best just pleading guilty unless you can show that they've entered a wrong date for the keeper change, which is going to be difficult to do.

Stresshead2014

Joe_Horner wrote: »

What date does DVLA show for the change of keeper? Is this before or after the alleged speeding offences? Note that it's the date of change that matters, not the date they made the change.

If DVLA have recorded the change of keeper as happening before (or possibly on the same date) as the speeding then your defence is simply that you were not the registered keeper at the time of the offence and the S.172 requirements don't apply. It doesn't matter if the administrative side of actually changing the records has taken time to catch up as long as you sorted the paperwork for the change correctly.

If DVLA have recorded the change as happening after the date of the speeding offence then S.172 does apply and you're best just pleading guilty unless you can show that they've entered a wrong date for the keeper change, which is going to be difficult to do.

The change of keeper is recorded as 15/08/2014. The speeding offences took place around early September about a week apart (I'm at work so will need to check when I get home.) I received the NIP(s) within 14 days of the offences. The second NIP on the same day as the notification of change of registered keeper. Which is where the confusion arised as I wrongly assumed that the police or whoever issues the NIP would tally up their records and prosecute the correct person without need for further action from myself (because in my mind that would be the sensible thing to do)

Stresshead2014

stephenoldham wrote: »

Sorry Stresshead2014 it looks like you don't have a defence. I think that you have realised that you should just have sent the notice back naming the new keeper of the vehicle.

You might be lucky at court and get a sympathetic prosecutor who realises that you made a genuine mistake and that you weren't trying to avoid a prosecution for speeding yourself. Try to speak to them before the trial and explain what has happened. You never know they may drop the charge.

If the prosecutor will not drop the charges then you might be best pleading guilty the magistrates/judge will have no reason to acquit you.

Unfortunately the issue of whether the purchaser has been prosecuted will not really help.The question for the court will be "Did you reply to the notice?"

Thanks for the response. You are correct and of course I realise what I should have done in the first place is respond. Thanks for the advice, I will be contacting the court today to ask if I can change my plea and submit mitigating evidence.

Car_54

Joe_Horner wrote: »

What date does DVLA show for the change of keeper? Is this before or after the alleged speeding offences? Note that it's the date of change that matters, not the date they made the change.

If DVLA have recorded the change of keeper as happening before (or possibly on the same date) as the speeding then your defence is simply that you were not the registered keeper at the time of the offence and the S.172 requirements don't apply. It doesn't matter if the administrative side of actually changing the records has taken time to catch up as long as you sorted the paperwork for the change correctly.

I'm afraid that is not correct - s172 still applies. While 172 (2(a)) requires the keeper of the vehicle to name the driver, the next section, 172 (2(b)) requires any other person to give "any information which it is in his power to give and may lead to identification of the driver."

Joe_Horner

Car_54 wrote: »

I'm afraid that is not correct - s172 still applies. While 172 (2(a)) requires the keeper of the vehicle to name the driver, the next section, 172 (2(b)) requires any other person to give "any information which it is in his power to give and may lead to identification of the driver."

But someone who has sold the car and recorded the change of keeper correctly, as appears to have happened here, doesn't "have it in his power" to give any information that he hasn't already given - ie: the name and address of the new keeper, so that doesn't apply in this case.