Smart meters - what is the catch?

Michaelw

If you have a current gas meter in a independent gas transporter ground box,pipework needs to be cut and modified and a base plate fitted for the British Gas models,even though here this had been done previously by Southern Gas Network for the Landis&Gyr gas prepayment British Gas fitted a new regulator and the already modified pipework had to be redone because the new regulator head was too large.It wasn't a straight forward job as expected and took longer.

There appears to be lag between the standing charge being deducted around 00.15 am and removed form the credit around 01.30am and there seems a small discrepancy between used today and the total amount of credit in the first hour at least.Unplugging the in home display for several days and plugging it back in showed various problems with readings in the first 24 hours.

I found I dont use the in home display now it would have been more use if the meter could be connected to a PC for real time readings

I just take credit amounts at the meter before topping up.Other then that its just as the old pay as you go.

Is the SMETS2 standard noticable at home or just for the suppliers network usage? In the end a meter is a meter so the readings are all that matters.

[Deleted User]

Smart meters won't be worth while until they come up with an industry standard meter that works on all suppliers, the same way as a standard meter works today. Also free of any supplier branding. Don't really want a display sitting on my shelf a few years down the line with a huge BG logo on when you've switched suppliers upteen times since.

MeterMan

There will never be just one type of meter, that will remove the competition from all other meter manufacturers.

SMETS2 type meters come from all different types of manufacturers but as long as they work with the DCC there should be no problem.

Is this your next complaint, that a product provided to you, has branding on from the company that fitted it? You're gonna have to come up with a better excuse than that to discourage the masses from having them fitted.

Anthorn

Deleted_User wrote: »

Smart meters won't be worth while until they come up with an industry standard meter that works on all suppliers, the same way as a standard meter works today. Also free of any supplier branding. Don't really want a display sitting on my shelf a few years down the line with a huge BG logo on when you've switched suppliers upteen times since.

Exactly. In my case OVO fitted a smart meter and then I switched to Ebico and the meter became manual and then I switched to Scottish Power due to the Ebico/SSE/RHE fiasco and it stayed manual. Actually I still have the smart meter and I press "9" on the keypad and that gives me the manual reading which I communicate to the energy provider. Right now I have expressed an interest in a smart meter with Scottish Power but no action on that yet.

The main effect of such a closed system is that those who want to keep their meter smart cannot switch supplier unless the new supplier agrees to immediately fit a smart meter. But then the problem will be repeated if they switch again.

[Deleted User]

MeterMan wrote: »

There will never be just one type of meter, that will remove the competition from all other meter manufacturers.

SMETS2 type meters come from all different types of manufacturers but as long as they work with the DCC there should be no problem.

Er.. that's what I'm on about. Once meters are all compatible with all suppliers. I didn't saying anything about who manufactures them.

Is this your next complaint, that a product provided to you, has branding on from the company that fitted it? You're gonna have to come up with a better excuse than that to discourage the masses from having them fitted.

What's wrong with the manufacture's branding, why must it have BG or EON logo?

I take it your livelihood depends on fitting these meters...

zeupater

Hi

The point which everyone is really missing is that the cost of the project would have been just a fraction of what it will be if the industry rolled out the smart-meters within the existing replacement schedule instead of rushing to meet an artificially imposed target date of 2020.

Additionally, there seem to be the normal 'gold plated' standard on what the EU actually imposed on member states ... I suggest that anyone supporting the project roll-out & the £12-£15billion likely cost actually read the relevant EU & UK documents and analyse where our civil service have failed to grasp the scope of the task ...

Now, seeing that the project is about consumer education and demand reduction, wouldn't it have been logical to develop a smart-metering technology solution to encompass tandem requirement for TGM facilities for distributed scale renewable energy technologies (PV, wind etc), possibly even developing further metering and data acquisition standards for systems covered by the RHI scheme too ... so what use a SMETS2 standard meter when it's technically incapable of delivering what's really required ... ie, not only multi-registers, but a fully relevant range of power input/output nodes on the electricity meter and the facility for the HA & DCC networks to not only include gas metering, but also incorporate various other metering sources too.

Now, to the benefits .... in reading the full project justification and looking for the cost/benefit analysis there's a pretty obvious flaw ... the cost of the smart-metering project is weighed against the potential benefits - however, the potential benefits include demand shifting and reduction made possible through the adoption of IOT technologies such as centralised remote control of freezers, heating etc .... but, seeing that the benefit is there, where's the cost?, maybe someone, somewhere could comment on such an obvious oversight ...

I for one think that the industry is not only opportunist, but have actually been active in creating the perception that smart-meters are required .... however, although the idea of applying a technology developed a couple of decades ago to automate meter reading may have been relevant prior to 2010, the world has seriously moved on with generation moving away from a centralised model to one more aligned with becoming decentralised, very much of which will be demand-side. However, the project cost/benefit analysis is likely to be totally smashed apart over the next few years as storage technologies become affordable ... what's the use of switching someone's freezer off to reduce grid demand when it's running off a domestic battery source and creating no grid demand ....

The logical question remaining revolves around - if the 'smart-meter' boat has already sailed, or stands no chance of reaching it's destination - why should we all be encouraged & expected to get onboard? ... surely the £billions in potential savings through chopping the project could be used more wisely? ...

HTH
Z

EachPenny

zeupater wrote: »

The point which everyone is really missing is that the cost of the project would have been just a fraction of what it will be if the industry rolled out the smart-meters within the existing replacement schedule instead of rushing to meet an artificially imposed target date of 2020.

Agreed, but it isn't a point everybody has missed, it is just a point that some people are very quiet about becuase it doesn't sit well with government plans to get everyone [STRIKE]under control[/STRIKE] saving money by 2020

zeupater wrote: »

Additionally, there seem to be the normal 'gold plated' standard on what the EU actually imposed on member states.

Always the way with the UK implementing EU policies, although perhaps not air quality ones. It will always be that way. Oh, hang on, perhaps not.

zeupater wrote: »

Now, seeing that the project is about consumer education and demand reduction...

Shhhhh! Don't say that, we don't want the masses knowing anything about that. This is all about saving them money remember? (Goes without saying that you also shouldn't mention the ability to cut their energy supply completely at the press of a computer button... that might make them a bit nervous)

zeupater wrote: »

Now, to the benefits .... in reading the full project justification and looking for the cost/benefit analysis there's a pretty obvious flaw ... the cost of the smart-metering project is weighed against the potential benefits - however, the potential benefits include demand shifting and reduction made possible through the adoption of IOT technologies such as centralised remote control of freezers, heating etc .... but, seeing that the benefit is there, where's the cost?, maybe someone, somewhere could comment on such an obvious oversight ...

Again, Shhhh! But the answer to that one is easy. The consumer will be paying for the IOT technologies directly as they replace their old appliances, so we don't need to count that cost. Unlike smart meters, which the consumers are getting at no cost to them (yeah, don't mention that bit isn't true either).

zeupater wrote: »

However, the project cost/benefit analysis is likely to be totally smashed apart over the next few years as storage technologies become affordable ... what's the use of switching someone's freezer off to reduce grid demand when it's running off a domestic battery source and creating no grid demand ....

Not sure I agree here. Although people are getting very excited about storage technologies, it isn't just a case of affordability but also one of efficiency. Electricity storage only really makes sense on a household scale if, once you have converted to DC to store it, you are then using it as DC at the appliance. That would mean developing a new standard for DC and manufacturers then coming up with DC appliances, which may be less efficient than their AC equivalents. There is a lot of energy to potentially be lost in the conversion, storage and use... is that an environmentally benefical approach compared to building a couple of new coal-fired power stations?

In any event, applying electricity storage technology to freezers would be a bit silly. They are already rather effective energy storage devices. You run them and they get cold inside. (for the benefit of any BEIS officials reading, think of 'cold' as a kind of negative energy like 'hot' is positive energy). They stay cold inside for long periods of time. You can span peak demand times by not running the compressor and still have sufficiently cold conditions inside the freezer long after the peak has passed. Inhibiting compressor runs during peak energy demand periods is a far more sensible solution than storing elecricity to be able to run the compressor at will.

zeupater wrote: »

... surely the £billions in potential savings through chopping the project could be used more wisely? ...

Absolutely. But how is that going to come about? Should we encourage people to rip out their smart meters and take them to the town square to have a ceremonial smart meter destruction party? I don't think it is likely to happen because the 'masses' simply don't care until something directly affects them. And then it is usually too late to do anything about it.

zeupater

EachPenny wrote: »

... Not sure I agree here. Although people are getting very excited about storage technologies, it isn't just a case of affordability but also one of efficiency. Electricity storage only really makes sense on a household scale if, once you have converted to DC to store it, you are then using it as DC at the appliance. That would mean developing a new standard for DC and manufacturers then coming up with DC appliances, which may be less efficient than their AC equivalents. There is a lot of energy to potentially be lost in the conversion, storage and use... is that an environmentally benefical approach compared to building a couple of new coal-fired power stations?

In any event, applying electricity storage technology to freezers would be a bit silly. They are already rather effective energy storage devices. You run them and they get cold inside. (for the benefit of any BEIS officials reading, think of 'cold' as a kind of negative energy like 'hot' is positive energy). They stay cold inside for long periods of time. You can span peak demand times by not running the compressor and still have sufficiently cold conditions inside the freezer long after the peak has passed. Inhibiting compressor runs during peak energy demand periods is a far more sensible solution than storing elecricity to be able to run the compressor at will.


Absolutely. But how is that going to come about? Should we encourage people to rip out their smart meters and take them to the town square to have a ceremonial smart meter destruction party? I don't think it is likely to happen because the 'masses' simply don't care until something directly affects them. And then it is usually too late to do anything about it.

Hi

"Not sure I agree here ..." ... The efficiency issue really isn't that bad ... the total AC/AC round trip losses in a well specified battery system should be approx 13%-15% and if stored direct as as DC with AC to supply demand then 10%-12% would be expected, so not bad in when combined with renewable energy sources such as domestic PV. The current issue is simply the cost of storage, and how quickly it can fall to become financially viable .... for this we're really taking about sub £150/kWh for a fully installed decent sized domestic system, so about a third to a quarter of current pricing. With current expectations of lithium-ion technology being sub-$100/kWh by 2020 (the smart-meter target date) and possibly $75/kWh a few years later, it simply becomes a race between storage tech and the meters ... however, seeing that the meters are effectively useless without accompanying IOT technologies and the market penetration of those technologies has yet to begin, then there's a very serious question as to whether the smart-meter solution could ever deliver the expected project savings over the life of the meter ...

"In any event, applying electricity storage technology to freezers ..." ... I agree that freezers are effective energy stores. The majority of our own domestic space heating is through the utilisation of high internal thermal mass and exceptionally high levels of insulation with heat being provided when 'top-up' is required by the most appropriate source (GCH, HP or Biomass) ... however, if the 140W our freezer consumes is deemed to be significant, but the 3kW a kettle uses for a brew isn't, doesn't that just about describe the mentality behind the IOT thinking ... where the appliance effectively has a baseload demand which can be centrally controlled it can be, but the most efficient way open to 'remind' consumers to not use energy at peak times is through the use of the 'big stick' through applying punitive tariffs using the HHM facility the meters provide - it's also relevant to note that whereas the 'carrot' approach of offering lower overnight and weekend tariffs to shift demand costs the industry, the 'big stick' approach can be a really effective cash-cow.

'Absolutely. But how is that going to come about .. ' ... pretty simple really ... the 2020 'deadline' needs to be reassessed and downgraded to an ambition, leaving the industry to adopt a program which is within their ability to deliver using their own resources. Additionally, a couple of decades ago the technology behind smart-meters was scoped in order for the industry to save meter-reading costs, a project of rolling replacement which the industry was content to finance themselves, paid for by offsetting administration & cost savings - it's only really the advent of internet based on-line account management that put the brakes on that project, but the technology is effectively the same, so where did the £12-£15billion we'll be paying come from (£500/household, probably the source of most of the recent £100/year increases which have been linked to 'government environmental policies') ....

Regarding ripping out the meters, well that's what will need be done for for almost all meters installed to date. Of the approx 53 million meters which are required, around 11% have been installed to date, that's a mixture of SMETS1 & 'advanced' meters which have been allowed to be installed just as an accounting exercise ... to BEIS it seems better show progress against number targets than to have something which can actually deliver the required functionality. The 'advanced' meters will not be DCC compliant and therefore all installed in a domestic environment are to be replaced, unfortunately that makes up the majority of the 6million installations to date, so there'd be no need for a town square meeting at all, the industry is already planning it for us ... at an additional cost to our tariffs, of course ... :D

HTH
Z

Michaelw

When these types of stories' appear theres always a concern about smart meters.They appear to use GSM technology which has been swiched off in some countries.There are reports of sim cards being removed and used for other purposes also.

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/dec/29/smart-electricity-meters-dangerously-insecure-hackers

https://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/05/02/stolen_sim_woman_jailed/

http://m2msecuritysims.com/gsmgprs-sim-cards-for-gsm-smart-meters/

http://krebsonsecurity.com/2012/04/fbi-smart-meter-hacks-likely-to-spread/

Which leads too.

The FBI believes that miscreants hacked into the smart meters using an optical converter device — such as an infrared light — connected to a laptop that allows the smart meter to communicate with the computer. After making that connection, the thieves changed the settings for recording power consumption using software that can be downloaded from the Internet.
“The optical converter used in this scheme can be obtained on the Internet for about $400,” the alert reads. “The optical port on each meter is intended to allow technicians to diagnose problems in the field.

The Landis&Gyr gas meter has this optical port as do many meters.

System

The one thing that cyber experts agree on is that UK smart meters will eventually get hacked - 'not if but when' said one academic in January.

Quote

Before concluding I would like to revisit the issue of security. I first raised this back in 2012, highlighting the risk of connected products and the ability to hack Internet of Things devices. The design of smart meters in Britain means that if they are hacked, power could be turned off for large chunks of the country, causing massive damage to the grid. When I questioned the sense of this design in meetings at DECC I got the reply from utilities of “why would anyone ever do that”. In general, those of us who have been trying to improve the security of connected devices have the impression that we’re treated as scare mongers.

Last month someone released the Mirai malware, which infected hundreds of thousands of routers and cameras, launching a denial of service attack which took down many major websites. It was the first indication that this could and will continue to happen. Recent experiments have shown that Mirai can infect an internet connected device within 98 seconds of it being turned on. This latest Impact Assessment talks about “streamlining security requirements” to make it more cost effective for small energy suppliers. There is still nothing to provide confidence that anyone is taking the threat to national infrastructure seriously. Unquote

Nick Hunn - 28 Nov 16

http://www.nickhunn.com/about/