Smart meters - what is the catch?

zeupater

Hengus wrote: »

The one thing that cyber experts agree on is that UK smart meters will eventually get hacked - 'not if but when' said one academic in January ...

Hi

To be fair, if someone or some country was serious about disrupting the UK power supply they would probably stand a better chance targetting the larger infrastructure nodes as opposed to individual smart-meters, and that could be done today ...

Unless there's a major and fundamental comms layer security flaw which is inherent across considerable numbers of smart-meters in a particular area, then targetting the meters themselves would likely be more of an irritant to customers and their chosen suppliers than disruptive to the network ... much more worrying would be a successful intrusion into major centralised generating plant and/or major substations, however, anyone looking to seriously disrupt the network would be targetting both the NGCR and the DCC ...

HTH
Z

Michaelw

I am disappointed with these meters.While the credits right everything else isnt.The daily readings are out on the display.Its telling me I'am using 9p a day electricity.The gas is out also.

I've resorted to reading the meters and ignoring the display totally its all wrong.For the sake of simply inserting a card and key theres no benefit to these.Its flashing away on a wall and thats it.The top ups are working thats all thats keeping it there.

After speaking to British Gas there appears to be a known problem with the smart meter displays not showing the correct information at least in prepayment mode.

Bluetobits

I'm staying with my old dial meters for as long as I can.
I'm a retired electrician and over the years I have had numerous calls from people who have said that their electricity bills have recently dramatically increased for no apparent reason. By looking back on previous bills, in the vast majority of cases it has been possible to trace this increase back to a meter change. It's impossible to prove after the old meter is removed and taken away, but based on my experience I suspect the following:
Old meters are notoriously inaccurate and have an error in the readings they display. The older the style of the meter, the worse the error, and the error in any style will drift over time. On the surface, this would seem to be a very good reason to upgrade.

BUT energy companies are not allowed to overcharge customers, meters are therefore set to read artificially low to allow for this error. The energy companies allow for this error when they set the price of their unit charge. Nevertheless, customers with old meters generally get a better deal than those with new meters because the inbuilt reading error is always in the customer's favour. 'Smart meters' are very accurate, so they are not set artificially low and read all of every unit used. We will never know if the allowance for meter inaccuracy in the unit charge is ever passed on to the customer, but assuming it is not, it would make a very significant increase in the energy company's profits for the life of each smart meter. It is therefore no surprise that they are keen to upgrade our meters.
On the other hand, if they do pass on the savings to their customers, those that remain on the old meter would get even cheaper energy.

It is possible to get a rough indication of meter accuracy using an appliance such as a radiant heater of known load in kW. Note that any CE marked appliance will be european standardised for 230 Volts. UK voltage is actually around 240V so remember to multiply the kW rating by 1.04 to get a better result, however it's unlikely that the appliance will be that accurate anyhow but it may give an indication.

1) Use a calculator to determine 60 / kW X 1.04. This gives the test duration in minutes.
Multiply just the figures after the decimal point by 60 to get seconds.
e.g. For a 2.5kW appliance , 60 / 2.5 X 1.04 = 24.96. 0.96 x 60 =57.6 test time is 24m 57s
2) Switch off or unplug everything around the house including fridges, boilers chargers etc.
3 Check the meter wheel is not turning. if it is, something is still on.
4) Note the meter reading. Include any red or decimal dials. Note that some dials may read backwards.
5) Plug in and switch on the heater at full power with any thermostat at maximum and start timing
6) When test duration has ended, switch off the heater, take a meter reading again
7) Subtract the first reading from the second.
8) The result should be exactly 1. If less than 1 the meter is under-reading and you are getting some free electricity. More than 1 and you may be being overcharged.
9) Switch back on everything you unplugged. Check fridges.

House_Martin

Bluetobits wrote: »

I'm staying with my old dial meters for as long as I can.
I'm a retired electrician and over the years I have had numerous calls from people who have said that their electricity bills have recently dramatically increased for no apparent reason. By looking back on previous bills, in the vast majority of cases it has been possible to trace this increase back to a meter change. It's impossible to prove after the old meter is removed and taken away, but based on my experience I suspect the following:
Old meters are notoriously inaccurate and have an error in the readings they display. The older the style of the meter, the worse the error, and the error in any style will drift over time. On the surface, this would seem to be a very good reason to upgrade.

BUT energy companies are not allowed to overcharge customers, meters are therefore set to read artificially low to allow for this error. The energy companies allow for this error when they set the price of their unit charge. Nevertheless, customers with old meters generally get a better deal than those with new meters because the inbuilt reading error is always in the customer's favour. 'Smart meters' are very accurate, so they are not set artificially low and read all of every unit used. We will never know if the allowance for meter inaccuracy in the unit charge is ever passed on to the customer, but assuming it is not, it would make a very significant increase in the energy company's profits for the life of each smart meter. It is therefore no surprise that they are keen to upgrade our meters.
On the other hand, if they do pass on the savings to their customers, those that remain on the old meter would get even cheaper energy.

It is possible to get a rough indication of meter accuracy using an appliance such as a radiant heater of known load in kW. Note that any CE marked appliance will be european standardised for 230 Volts. UK voltage is actually around 240V so remember to multiply the kW rating by 1.04 to get a better result, however it's unlikely that the appliance will be that accurate anyhow but it may give an indication.

1) Use a calculator to determine 60 / kW X 1.04. This gives the test duration in minutes.
Multiply just the figures after the decimal point by 60 to get seconds.
e.g. For a 2.5kW appliance , 60 / 2.5 X 1.04 = 24.96. 0.96 x 60 =57.6 test time is 24m 57s
2) Switch off or unplug everything around the house including fridges, boilers chargers etc.
3 Check the meter wheel is not turning. if it is, something is still on.
4) Note the meter reading. Include any red or decimal dials. Note that some dials may read backwards.
5) Plug in and switch on the heater at full power with any thermostat at maximum and start timing
6) When test duration has ended, switch off the heater, take a meter reading again
7) Subtract the first reading from the second.
8) The result should be exactly 1. If less than 1 the meter is under-reading and you are getting some free electricity. More than 1 and you may be being overcharged.
9) Switch back on everything you unplugged. Check fridges.

I have noticed it !, not only is your old dial meter possibly slightly recording on the low side but it will certainly run backwards if you have solar panels fitted.This is the biggest loss to suppliers by much more than fractions of a kwh.
The rotating ring will start to spin backwards at a high speed on a hot day when occupiers are nt in, or at work deducting all last nights usage and presenting the occupiers with a virtually zero bill. This dishonesty by the occupiers has been allowed to continue because its few and far between when they will report this to the suppliers.
Legally they should be reporting a faulty meter. It is in the T and C s of everyone to report asap any faulty meters and these blatant dishonest users should face back billing up to 6 years when they are finally caught.
I ve just come from a property where the owner admitted to burning off many kwh s often to avoid the meter registering a negative reading from the last quarterly reading which he has been doing for years .I might add. Just one of many. collecting up to 50 p a unit at the same time from the FIT meter..a double whammy.
Yet again I have reported this to both RPU at British Gas and OFGEM this week hoping to get all occupiers who have solar panels and one of these old analogue meters changed asap.They have all the serial numbers of the meters and can easily get them changed to digital meters ( not necessarily smart meters.
Suppliers are just plain stupid !

zeupater

House_Martin wrote: »

I have noticed it !, not only is your old dial meter possibly slightly recording on the low side but it will certainly run backwards if you have solar panels fitted.This is the biggest loss to suppliers by much more than fractions of a kwh.
The rotating ring will start to spin backwards at a high speed on a hot day when occupiers are nt in, or at work deducting all last nights usage and presenting the occupiers with a virtually zero bill. This dishonesty by the occupiers has been allowed to continue because its few and far between when they will report this to the suppliers.
Legally they should be reporting a faulty meter. It is in the T and C s of everyone to report asap any faulty meters and these blatant dishonest users should face back billing up to 6 years when they are finally caught.
I ve just come from a property where the owner admitted to burning off many kwh s often to avoid the meter registering a negative reading from the last quarterly reading which he has been doing for years .I might add. Just one of many. collecting up to 50 p a unit at the same time from the FIT meter..a double whammy.
Yet again I have reported this to both RPU at British Gas and OFGEM this week hoping to get all occupiers who have solar panels and one of these old analogue meters changed asap.They have all the serial numbers of the meters and can easily get them changed to digital meters ( not necessarily smart meters.
Suppliers are just plain stupid !

Hi

... Although this may happen, it's relevant to mention that it doesn't apply to all, the majority of, or even a significant proportion of analogue meters due to having a ratchet mechanism to stop the meter running backwards.

It's also quite useful to note that the high initial FiT rated raised applied when installed systems cost approx 4x more than current prices and that vast majority of people with solar panels had them installed after various rounds of FiT scheme reductions ... additionally, the vast majority of systems export considerably more than the deemed 50% for which they are being paid.

It's relevant to note that meters which actually do run backwards aren't faulty, they're simply not fit for purpose where microgeneration is installed. If they were considered 'faulty' then the industry would be failing in their duty to safety inspect installations for faults on a pre-determined basis!

As you rightly note, the make, model & serial numbers of meters are known to the industry & the capabilities of all installed meters was verified by DECC, manufacturers & the energy industry before the FiT scheme was released in 2010, so there's been plenty of time for the industry to react.

On these boards there have been a number of queries related to reversing analogue meters, the majority of which actually had a ratchet on the meter (as denoted by a symbol printed on the meter), but occasionally there have been meters which actually run backwards ... In these cases system owners have been informed that it's almost certain that they've seen/signed that in cases of the meter reversing they'd have a duty to inform their supplier and that the supplier would have a right to recover lost income ... although in many (/most?) cases it seems that they've been content to simply change the meter because of the complexities & cost involved in estimating net consumption & arguing responsibilities ...

Regarding back billing 6 years ... are you sure that the industry is legally allowed to back bill ? ... Effectively, as already mentioned, the industry already know the type of meter installed, therefore in allowing the meter to reverse they are at fault, so are limited to recover only up to 12 months of lost revenue ... however, in a number of cases raised on these boards, consumers have informed their suppliers of reversing meters and they've not replaced the meter .. in these cases they (the supplier) failed Ofgem's requirement 'to do anything about a query or fault you have raised regarding your account or meter' and therefore forfeit all or part of the 'up to 12 months' lost revenue which Ofgem allow ...

Yes, there may be dishonesty involved with some non-disclosure, but considering that it would almost certainly impact on system certification and access to FiT payments (whatever they may be) it's probably at a level which is far less significant than portrayed.

I have a solar PV system with an analogue meter. The meter has a non-reverse mechanism as denoted by the ratchet symbol on the front face and it does not run backwards ... if it did then I would hope that the industry would have noticed over 20MWh of reversal by now!

HTH
Z

House_Martin

zeupater wrote: »

Hi

... Although this may happen, it's relevant to mention that it doesn't apply to all, the majority of, or even a significant proportion of analogue meters due to having a ratchet mechanism to stop the meter running backwards.

It's also quite useful to note that the high initial FiT rated raised applied when installed systems cost approx 4x more than current prices and that vast majority of people with solar panels had them installed after various rounds of FiT scheme reductions ... additionally, the vast majority of systems export considerably more than the deemed 50% for which they are being paid.

It's relevant to note that meters which actually do run backwards aren't faulty, they're simply not fit for purpose where microgeneration is installed. If they were considered 'faulty' then the industry would be failing in their duty to safety inspect installations for faults on a pre-determined basis!

As you rightly note, the make, model & serial numbers of meters are known to the industry & the capabilities of all installed meters was verified by DECC, manufacturers & the energy industry before the FiT scheme was released in 2010, so there's been plenty of time for the industry to react.

On these boards there have been a number of queries related to reversing analogue meters, the majority of which actually had a ratchet on the meter (as denoted by a symbol printed on the meter), but occasionally there have been meters which actually run backwards ... In these cases system owners have been informed that it's almost certain that they've seen/signed that in cases of the meter reversing they'd have a duty to inform their supplier and that the supplier would have a right to recover lost income ... although in many (/most?) cases it seems that they've been content to simply change the meter because of the complexities & cost involved in estimating net consumption & arguing responsibilities ...

Regarding back billing 6 years ... are you sure that the industry is legally allowed to back bill ? ... Effectively, as already mentioned, the industry already know the type of meter installed, therefore in allowing the meter to reverse they are at fault, so are limited to recover only up to 12 months of lost revenue ... however, in a number of cases raised on these boards, consumers have informed their suppliers of reversing meters and they've not replaced the meter .. in these cases they (the supplier) failed Ofgem's requirement 'to do anything about a query or fault you have raised regarding your account or meter' and therefore forfeit all or part of the 'up to 12 months' lost revenue which Ofgem allow ...

Yes, there may be dishonesty involved with some non-disclosure, but considering that it would almost certainly impact on system certification and access to FiT payments (whatever they may be) it's probably at a level which is far less significant than portrayed.

I have a solar PV system with an analogue meter. The meter has a non-reverse mechanism as denoted by the ratchet symbol on the front face and it does not run backwards ... if it did then I would hope that the industry would have noticed over 20MWh of reversal by now!

HTH
Z

No "may happen " its a cast iron certainty it happens, in large numbers too.
Which magazine did a survey of 1300 solar panel users and 25% admitted up front that their meters reversed. Which magazine also estimated that the true figure was much much higher to take into account the liars..
I have much more experience than you as a an electrician with a limited knowledge of the subject.As a meter reader for almost 20 years with BG, Scot Power, EDF and many other smaller suppliers, I have seen umpteen thousands of these old Sangamo Weston meters, probably the commonest old analogue meter, both dial and mechanical models and everyone will reverse.
Everyone nearly is on the internet nowadays to google "my electric meter go s backwards " and there is no excuse for bare faced thievery when occupants know whats going off and do naff all about it, pleading ignorance of course, as you would. Its something for nothing so they go for it most of the time, with maybe one in ten coming clean and informing their supplier.
The solar panel fitters are supposed to inform the householder that their meters are not fit for purpose. Maybe in the early days they were too thick to know about it , but not in the last 8 years . They do inform the customer, the customer ignores it of course and does not pick up the phone to the supplier.
I have met and seen too many dodgy occupiers and listened to their pleas of ignorance when I ve informed them that their meters are faulty.The usual reply is "its nothing to do with me , its their meter"..
That is why the deliberately burn off excess electricity units in the middle of summer to avoid the meter register going negative from the last reading.. Bent solar panel users are all over the place and have been for many years.
Like I say, the suppliers are just plain stupid.

Phil&Michelle

The whole smart meters thing is all a bit daft. Problem is all the energy companies are using different meters and different software so if you switch supplier the meter smart might now work.

zeupater

House_Martin wrote: »

No "may happen " its a cast iron certainty it happens, in large numbers too.
Which magazine did a survey of 1300 solar panel users and 25% admitted up front that their meters reversed. Which magazine also estimated that the true figure was much much higher to take into account the liars..
I have much more experience than you as a an electrician with a limited knowledge of the subject.As a meter reader for almost 20 years with BG, Scot Power, EDF and many other smaller suppliers, I have seen umpteen thousands of these old Sangamo Weston meters, probably the commonest old analogue meter, both dial and mechanical models and everyone will reverse.
Everyone nearly is on the internet nowadays to google "my electric meter go s backwards " and there is no excuse for bare faced thievery when occupants know whats going off and do naff all about it, pleading ignorance of course, as you would. Its something for nothing so they go for it most of the time, with maybe one in ten coming clean and informing their supplier.
The solar panel fitters are supposed to inform the householder that their meters are not fit for purpose. Maybe in the early days they were too thick to know about it , but not in the last 8 years . They do inform the customer, the customer ignores it of course and does not pick up the phone to the supplier.
I have met and seen too many dodgy occupiers and listened to their pleas of ignorance when I ve informed them that their meters are faulty.The usual reply is "its nothing to do with me , its their meter"..
That is why the deliberately burn off excess electricity units in the middle of summer to avoid the meter register going negative from the last reading.. Bent solar panel users are all over the place and have been for many years.
Like I say, the suppliers are just plain stupid.

Hi

Okay, lets put qualifications on that ... the sample survey of 1300 installations was over 4 years ago, of the 25% who believed their meters ran backwards, 80% had already had their meters changed or were awaiting a change on a FOC basis, with 'a few' more having been charged for the change ... leaving about 60 (or 4%-5%) outstanding ...

The article itself makes little timeline sense either ... the survey was 2013, however 700k installations are mentioned, which wasn't achieved until almost 3 years later ....

The possibility of reversing meters was flagged to the industry in 2004 ...

3, Meter Operators should publish advice on which types of meters may run backwards, and how many are installed.Reason: This will help suppliers and micro-generator installers to identify meters that are unsuitable if export may occur.

Microgeneration Preparation Report 19/05/2004

And all existing meters were flagged as suitable or not by the industry & manufacturers through a consultation/questionnaire leading to Regulatory Delivery and Ofgem issuing ....

Appropriate meter

It is also a requirement of the Electricity Act 1989 that customers of electricity suppliers who are charged by reference to the quantity of electricity supplied to them must have their supply provided through an appropriate meter.


RD does not consider meters affected by onsite generation to be appropriate, as required by the Electricity Act 1989, because of the negative impact on consumer billing and electricity settlement. Those meters that are deemed inappropriate for the purposes of the Electricity Act 1989 should be exchanged. If the supplier is aware the meter is inappropriate and does not take steps to change the meter it will not be meeting the obligations it has under the Electricity Act 1989. A list of meters with known issues has been produced by the Association of Meter Operators (AMO). This list can be found on its Stakeholder Information page under the heading ‘Reverse Running Meters’. (Please note the caveats as to the accuracy of this information.)

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/electricity-meters-feed-in-tariff-fit-scheme#approved-meters

So we effectively have a report which may be inaccurate due to both elapsed time and technical abilities of those questioned. I've seen plenty of examples of people thinking their meters reverse, only to find that they only do until the backstop is reached ... Add to this the potential of a little journalistic sensationalism brought about by mixing data from different periods in order to paint a picture and we start to see a theme ...

So, on the industry side .... your position as "a meter reader for almost 20 years with BG, Scot Power, EDF and many other smaller suppliers, I have seen umpteen thousands of these old Sangamo Weston meters, probably the commonest old analogue meter, both dial and mechanical models and everyone will reverse." simply suggests that the companies named in knowing that there is an issue have been & continue to be neglecting their obligations as defined by the appropriate legislation which covers this very situation 'because of the negative impact on consumer billing and electricity' ... I would hope that appropriate formal feedback loops have been & continue to be available to meter readers to raise the profile of meters capable of reversing within their respective organisation and that those organisations have taken their obligations seriously considering that microgeneration schemes have been running since 2010 ....

Maybe if there is such a substantial issue, Ofgem should take the appropriate action that their regulatory powers enable them to ... which of course includes the withdrawal of supply license where serious failings have occurred.

Regarding the remark ... " the suppliers are just plain stupid" - I'd tend to agree considering what we've been discussing. However, the subject of this thread is 'Smart-Meters', a piece of kit where the industry believes that it's the consumer who is 'plain stupid' and is taking all measures possible to charge an extortionate £500/household for a meter which could & should be supplied within existing obligations, timescales & costs without impacting customer bills in any way ....

HTH
Z

House_Martin

The current Tory government, or one of its Ministers, has deemed it suitable for the citizens of the UK to refuse a smart meter if they fancy.
So that follows that all these dodgy solar power and old analogue meter users will want to keep the status quo for as long as possible and of course they will refuse a smart meter and make it very hard for their meters to be updated.
A typical conversation took place the other week with one happy customer with a reversing meter ( thief ), who made it clear that not only would he refuse a smart meter he was nt going to open the door to any meter fitters who come to change the meter to a digital meter which will not reverse.
When this sort of thing happens the suppliers will use the meter fitter to attempt a visit and just file it and come back in three months for another try , and another, and another etc and the years will tick by because no supplier will deem it appropriate to take out a warrant of entry merely to update a meter. No Magistrate would sign this warrant.
Suppliers like Scottish Power and EDF are loath to spend money on warrants (at least £250 with a locksmith costs ) on straight bypassing and tampering of meters so a backward spinning meter will just be forgotten.This is how the "easy touch " UK operates.
Suppliers are lax and stupid, and so is the Tory minister who bowed to the public and thereby inferred " If you don t want a smart meter and want to keep tampering your electric and gas and retain your reversing meter thats fine by me ".

badmemory

I still don't see the point in forcing someone to have a smart meter, which the muggins general public are paying for (ie me), when all that person has to do is change supplier. A complete waste of everybodies time and MY money. Of course it does keep a lot of meter fitters off the dole!