UKPC - Aylesbury Shopping Centre

1505grandad

I am dealing with daughter's spec.invoice from UKPC - window ticket on 30/1/15.

NTK received and on 17/3/15 usual appeal from Newbies sticky sent to UKPC.

Rejected. Appeal to POPLA sent 20/5/2015 with usual points - GPEOL, landowner contract, unlawful penalty charge, non-compliant NTK and signage. Many thanks to all the posters on MSE & Peppipoo for all the information I used to prepare the appeals etc.

POPLA acknowledged stating adjudication due 24/6/2015.

No evidence pack received by 24/6 - emailed POPLA who replied 25/6 with attached evidence submitted by UKPC on 17/6. Asked for 7 day stay of adjudication. (Auto-response to the email request received but no actual email from POPLA - but assume that stay has been logged).

I have prepared a rebuttal of UKPCs evidence pack, posted below (UKPC evidence did not refer to the GPEOL appeal point but included a lengthy spiel re Beavis case).

I notice that a recent post on Peppipoo dated 16/6 by GIBZY advising win at POPLA for same site as my daughter's against UKPC, but no actual rebuttal was posted.

I will be most grateful if anybody can let me know if this is ok and there are no obvious errors or omissions.



Verification code:

In response to the evidence pack that UK Parking Control Ltd. have submitted:-


UKPC have not addressed point No. 2 in my appeal re:


CONTRACT WITH THE LANDOWNER — NOT COMPLIANT WITH THE BPA CODE OF PRACTICE AND NO LEGAL STATUS TO OFFER PARKING OR ENFORCE CHARGES

as no copy of the contract with the landowner has been submitted with their evidence.

I contend that UKPC have not disproved point No.4 in my appeal re:

NOTICE TO KEEPER NOT COMPLIANT WITH THE POFA 2012


UKPC state that they have clearly identified that they are the creditor in their correspondence with me. However, as can be seen from the evidence they have provided, none of this correspondence clearly states the name of the creditor and, as such, it seems that one must be expected to infer that UKPC is indeed the creditor. Merely implying that UKPC is the creditor does not meet the requirements of PoFA 2012.

Additionally, UKPC state that "by stating the date and time of charge issuance on our notices, we are specifying the period of parking to which the notice relates – the relevant period of parking is that into which the stated date and time falls." A period of time has both a start and an end and without one or the other is, by definition, not a period. UKPC have failed to mention at least one of these on their Notice to Keeper. The period into which a point in time falls is a meaningless statement – this could in fact be any period of time. UKPC’s example of a motorist who has parked several times on site demonstrates the importance of explicitly specifying a period.

Therefore UKPC have not met the keeper liability requirements and, as a result, keeper liability does not apply.





Beavis Case

UKPC claim in their evidence pack that the recent Parking Eye v Beavis case heard at the Court of Appeal gives justification to their claim.



I contend that there are few similarities.

Mr Beavis overstayed the free parking allowed, where no facility existed to purchase extra time, whereas the driver of my vehicle left the car park within the two hour free parking allowed. UKPC have produced no evidence to the contrary.

Parking Eye were making payments to that landowner for a parking management concession conferring what might be considered as landowner rights. It was argued by Parking Eye that it was necessary for them to recover these sums by the issuing of parking charge notices.
I contend that, unless a similar contract is in place with this landowner, there can be no argument in this case of commercial justification as no loss to them was involved.

As the penalties imposed in the local authority car parks are £50 and this is reduced even after appeal by 50%.
Therefore I contend that the charge imposed by UKPC is indeed extravagant.

Finally I would state that the Beavis case is still subject to appeal and until this matter is finally resolved any claims by UKPC are spurious.

I presume that the mention of the Beavis case in their evidence pack is in response to my appeal point No.1:-


NO GENUINE PRE-ESTIMATE OF LOSS

UKPC have therefore failed to provide an un-redacted breakdown of the Genuine Pre-Estimate of Loss (GPEOL) as requested in my appeal.

With regard to my appeal point No. 3:-

UNLAWFUL PENALTY CHARGE

UKPC has not explicitly addressed this point from my appeal and has, therefore, not denied that they generate revenues from parking notices alone. I would re-state that this, therefore, is not a loss, rather a revenue source for them. Hence, it is against the principles of parking charges and should be quashed.

With regard to my appeal point No.5:-



UNCLEAR, INADEQUATE AND NON-COMPLIANT SIGNAGE


some of the photos in the evidence pack are date stamped 2012 and are therefore not pertinent to the actual time of the incident. I do not accept that UKPC have proved conclusively that the signs were seen and understood by the driver, and therefore did not enter into any contract with UKPC.

　

Yours faithfully,

Umkomaas

Looks ok to me. There's one sentence that I'm not sure where you're going.

Hence, it is against the principles of parking charges and should be quashed.

I'm not sure whether you've read any of the following two links - but they contain some very good rebuttal points. Have a scan through them; they may give you some further ideas, but what you've drafted so far I'm sure will be fine.

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=67385911&posted=1#post67385911

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showpost.php?p=67402366&postcount=26

1505grandad

Once again my heartfelt thanks for all the experts, posters and contributors on this forum that enabled me, via their advice etc., to persevere and after a lengthy email, letter and telephone jaunts enabled the UKPC invoice to be cancelled by Aviva Life & Pensions UK Ltd.


@ Umkomaas - many thanks for advising my rebuttal was as such o.k., it has been sent toPOPLA.

With regard to the sentence you mentioned, this was blatantly plagiarised from a post by takewhatyoucan #7 in the thread titled POPLA Appeal - UKPC - Feedback appreciated. (Many thanks takewhatyoucan - hope you don't mind).

It may be of interest/amusement as to how the cancellation came about, and perhaps explain the post title. It is probably much too long but if anybody reads it I hope they feel the same I do!!.

When RTK received in March 2015, as well as doing all the usual appeals from the NEWBIES I also assisted my daughter in trying to get the invoice cancelled by first the retailer, B&M and then by the landowner Aviva Life & Pensions Ltd.

No reply received from manager at B&M store in Aylesbury, so emailed CEO (Simon Arora).

Eventually received reply from Paula Sloan who agreed to cancel invoice -HOORAY.

In the email she said - "We have however, on this occasion been in contact with G24 and spoken to Lisa who has now overturned this parking notice for you, confirmation will be sent out to you from G24 in due course." Holdon - Lisa at G24!!!

Emailed back thanking Paula for cancellation but assumed that typing error occurred as G24 stated as being contacted not UKPC, which was clearly mentioned in my emails, and asked for confirmation.

She replied - "[FONT=Calibri, sans-serif]My apologies for the error below, I have further looked into this matter and the car park is not the responsibility of B&M, therefore, B&M do not have any jurisdiction over the parking notices issued and we would therefore ask you to go through the correct channels of appealing[/FONT]

[FONT=Calibri, sans-serif]Emailed back expressing disappointment at not cancelling and requesting details of landowner to whom I could appeal. NO FURTHER REPLIES RECEIVED.[/FONT]

[FONT=Calibri, sans-serif]I then found info online that Aviva Life & Pensions UK Ltd were the landowners.[/FONT]

[FONT=Calibri, sans-serif]After lots of emails, letters and telephone calls, none of which were replied to, I got so pxxxxd off I sent the following email to CEO office email address:-[/FONT]

Dear Mr Wilson,

I am extremely disappointed that no one from Aviva PLC OR Aviva Life and Pensions UK Ltd. has had the courtesy to reply to any of the emails, letters or the telephone message I and/or my father have sent to your organisations.

These have been sent because, as registered keeper, I received the above speculative invoice (PCN) by UKPC inviting me to pay £90 for the privilege of my car being parked at Aylesbury Retail Park while the occupants spent hard earned monies at the retail park shops. The car left well within the 2 hour free parking allowed at the site.

I attach the following:-

1) email dated 6th May with attachments (includes copies of speculative invoice, shopping receipts) sent to [EMAIL="hccomp@aviva.co.uk"]hccomp@aviva.co.uk[/EMAIL] and cc'd to Aviva PLC [EMAIL="helpdesk@aviva.co.uk"]helpdesk@aviva.co.uk[/EMAIL]

2) letter dated 15th May sent to Aviva Life and Pensions UK Ltd

My father also telephoned the switchboard tel. no. 01603622200 on 2nd June at 2.20pm who put him through to another department which went to answer machine. My father left a message asking for them to call back. No call-back.

I have been informed that Aviva Life and Pension UK Ltd are the owners of Aylesbury Retail Park and I have therefore been demanding that the speculative invoice from UKPC is cancelled as no one has lost any money just because a piece of paper was not visible on my car. Of course, if I have been misinformed that the retail park is not owned by Aviva, I apologise for wasting your time.

I repeat that I have not had the courtesy of any contact from Aviva of any sort and sincerely hope that this can now be remedied.

Regards,

[FONT=Calibri, sans-serif]NO REPLY[/FONT][FONT=Calibri, sans-serif],so again sent the following to CEO office:-[/FONT]

Hello.

Any chance of a reply to my emails, letters, telephone calls?.

Here'shoping

[FONT=Calibri, sans-serif]17/6/2015 - [/FONT][FONT=Calibri, sans-serif]HOORAY- email received from Lara Weaver (Lara.Weaver@avivainvestors.com) attaching a letter dated 18th May from JLL to my daughter (never received) refusing to cancel pcn but "they have however spoken to UKPC and asked that the reduced charge period be extended"!!![/FONT]

[FONT=Calibri, sans-serif]In this letter they say[/FONT][FONT=Calibri, sans-serif]"Additional details from UKPC advise that there was a notice issued in 2012 against this vehicle that remains unpaid."[/FONT]

[FONT=Calibri, sans-serif]COMPLETE AND UTTER LIE!![/FONT]

[FONT=Calibri, sans-serif]There then followed a series of emails, mainly from me, requesting the details of "outstanding charge". None of the emails from me to [EMAIL="Lara.Weaver@avivainvestors.com"]Lara.Weaver@avivainvestors.com[/EMAIL] were responded to.[/FONT]

[FONT=Calibri, sans-serif]30/6/2015 - 20.08 p.m. - email sent to personal email address of Mark Wilson([EMAIL="marka.wilson@aviva.com"]marka.wilson@aviva.com[/EMAIL]) saying that requests for "outstanding charge" not responded to.[/FONT]

[FONT=Calibri, sans-serif]1/7/2015 - 8.35 a.m. [/FONT][FONT=Calibri, sans-serif]-email from Lara Weaver saying [/FONT][FONT=Calibri, sans-serif]"I am the person overseeing this matter. Unfortunately I have been unable to access my emails since Friday evening. I will establish when the requested information will be sent to you and revert"[/FONT][FONT=Calibri, sans-serif].[/FONT][FONT=Calibri, sans-serif]I think that what [/FONT][FONT=Calibri, sans-serif]she really meant was that she has just got a kick up the backside by the CEO.[/FONT]

[FONT=Calibri, sans-serif]1/7/2015 - 13.50 p.m.[/FONT][FONT=Calibri, sans-serif]- email from Derek Read [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif](Derek.Read@eu.jll.com)with the one line:- [/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]"Further to your emails below, please find attached a copy of the letter posted today".[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]The letter referred to is as follows:-[/FONT]


R[FONT=Segoe UI, Tahoma, Verdana, Sans-Serif][FONT=Calibri, Sans-Serif]e: Aylesbury Shopping Park - Parking Charge [/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Segoe UI, Tahoma, Verdana, Sans-Serif][FONT=Calibri, Sans-Serif]I am writing further to your recent emails to Lara Weaver of Aviva Investors regarding the parking charge issued to your daughter. [/FONT]
[FONT=Segoe UI, Tahoma, Verdana, Sans-Serif][FONT=Calibri, Sans-Serif]Following a request for evidence of the 2012 charge, UKPC have investigated further and subsequently advised that although a notice was issued, it was in fact paid in December 2012. Our apologies are extended for the undue distress both you and your daughter have been caused as a result of the previous statement regarding this charge.[/FONT] [/FONT]
[FONT=Segoe UI, Tahoma, Verdana, Sans-Serif][FONT=Calibri, Sans-Serif]Under the circumstances, it is considered appropriate that the recent penalty charge which I understand is currently under consideration by POPLA, be cancelled. I can confirm that instructions have been given to UKPC to cancel the notice and record against their records that all recovery action regarding this ceases immediately.[/FONT] [/FONT]

[FONT=Segoe UI, Tahoma, Verdana, Sans-Serif][FONT=Calibri, Sans-Serif]Again I offer my apologies for the distress this matter has caused.[/FONT] [/FONT]

[FONT=Segoe UI, Tahoma, Verdana, Sans-Serif][FONT=Calibri, Sans-Serif]Yours sincerely[/FONT] [/FONT]

Derek Read
Surveyor
[/FONT]
PENALTYNOTICE!!!?

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1/7/2015 - 14.05 p.m. - email from LaraWeaver as follows:-[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]I wish to add my own personal regret that UKPC advised us in error that there was an outstanding penalty charge. We will be taking this up further with them. We are very sorry for the undue stress experienced by you and your daughter during a difficult time.[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]We will not be pursuing the most recent penalty charge, as outlined in Derek’s letter to you.[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Best wishes[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Kind regards[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Lara Weaver[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Hopefully Lara Weaver is starting to get as pxxxxd off with UKPC as everybody else!! (She also called it a penalty). In her emails to me I got the impression that she seemed to hold UKPC in great esteem.[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]I am intending to reply as follows:-[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]AT LAST.[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]However, it is my understanding that even though landowners promise to cancel a motorists speculative invoice (NOT PENALTY CHARGE) the parking company still harass the motorist demanding payment, or demand an admin. fee, perhaps £50, to cancel the invoice.[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Therefore, because you have constantly refused to believe the word of my daughter and myself, I return the compliment and will therefore carry on as though the invoice is still active, until I and my daughter receive official documentation from UKPC that the matter has indeed been cancelled, with also a copy emailed direct to me. Perhaps an apology will be in order as well but I won't hold my breath.[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]As I have said in my previous email my daughter and I have commitments this week (I am writing this in a hospital). I will therefore prepare a detailed response to Aviva and JLL regarding how my vulnerable daughter has been so badly and unnecessarily affected by the complete lack of respect and,in my opinion, the libellous statements written about her, and will also bring up other matters.[/FONT]

I have already spent many many wasted hours on this completelyunnecessary exercise.

It is very mysterious that documents demanding money always seem to get delivered, but anything else seems to vanish - (I will expand on this in my detailed reply).

I suggest therefore that you arrange for the official notice of cancellation from UKPC to be posted, and a copy emailed to me, immediately, as my billing hours are still mounting.


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]It would be really great if everybody who has received an invoice at this shopping centre emailed their disgust concerning UKPC's activities to Lara Weaver, Derek Read and Mark Wilson at the above mentioned email addresses. It might make them even more pxxxxd off with UKPC.[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]I am in fact also assisting my nephew who received spec. invoice in exactly the same circumstances as my daughter. We have sent an email to Lara Weaver etc. expressing disgust at the invoice. Waiting for POPLA code from UKPC.[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Overthe weekend I will be preparing my very detailed response to Aviva/JLL.[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Once again, sorry for the lengthy post but if it has helped/amused anyone then I will be happy.[/FONT]

Umkomaas

Well done 1505, great tenacity seemingly bringing success.

It's appalling that anyone has to go through such hoops to get rid of a speculative charge that had no basis. And the PPCs hold most of the cards - fire off a NtK and if it doesn't bring in the money, the motorist has to either jump through the same hoops you have had to, or endure months and months of sh/t from debt collectors, and when that eventually tails off, they still face up to six years with the possibility of a court case against them, with all the added sh/t that will bring to their life.

As I said, an appalling situation!

1505grandad

Synopsis from my rather lengthy post above:-

UKPC claimed a charge outstanding from 2012

Advised to JLL & Aviva employees in writing?

As detailed in my post when I asked for details turned out this was paid (I did not know anything about it at the time!)

If UKPC really did think this was o/s I would have thought that debt collector letters would have followed. Nothing received.

Not even an acknowledgement of payment.

Anyone have any thoughts about DPA breach?

1505grandad

Received POPLA adjudication - won on no contract.

Will now post on POPLA decisions AND Landowners cancellation threads.

Nephew's invoice cancellation will be next.

1505grandad

As recommended by forum I sent emails to DVLA and BPA and also ICO re UKPC on behalf of my daughter.

Received reply from DVLA.

The email I sent to DVLA was:

To: [EMAIL="ccrt@dvla.gsi.gov.uk"]ccrt@dvla.gsi.gov.uk[/EMAIL] Cc: [EMAIL="steve.c@britishparking.co.uk"]steve.c@britishparking.co.uk[/EMAIL], [EMAIL="marka.wilson@aviva.com"]marka.wilson@aviva.com[/EMAIL]

3 attachments (total 895.7 KB) 　

POPLA result xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Managing agents letter.pdf

Reply from JLL re 2012 invoice.pdf

　

POPLA REF: xxxxxxxxxx UK PARKING CONTROL LTD - AYLESBURY SHOPPING PARK

Dear Sir,

I attach the POPLA adjudication result upholding my appeal concerning a parking ticket issued by UKPC at the above mentioned car park.

You will see that the Adjudicator determined that my appeal be allowed because - "I cannot find that the operator had sufficient rights in the land to enter into contracts in respect of it. Therefore the parking charge notice cannot be held to be validly issued."

In view of the POPLA statement that UKPC have no authority to operate on the land I ask that the DVLA stop providing keeper details for this particular site.

I also attach letters dated 18th May and 1st July 2015 from JLL, (via attachments to emails), who are the managing agents of Aylesbury Shopping Park.

The letter dated 18th May (which I have never received by post) states that a notice issued in 2012 remains unpaid. I had no knowledge of this and eventually after chasing for details, received the letter dated 1st July advising that the charge, which I knew nothing about, had in fact been paid in December 2012.

I therefore again ask that the DVLA stop providing UKPC keeper details for this site as they are in breach of the KADOE contract by not adhering to the BPA Code of Practice - in that proper records have not been kept by UKPC. I believe it is also a breach of the DPA.

Also, it was necessary for me to email POPLA, near to the date of adjudication, to enquire whether they had received any evidence pack from UKPC. POPLA confirmed that they had the week before, and they kindly emailed me a copy of the evidence pack, and granted me a 7 day extension. I rebutted the evidence pack which of course resulted in my appeal being upheld as mentioned above. No doubt UKPC will say it was sent to me, but they have form for items supposedly being lost in the post.

May I point out that any breach of the Code of Practice the PPC is signed up to, breaches the KADOE contract to get DVLA data. The matter has been escalated to the CCR team because I have no confidence in the data release team to take such a complaint seriously, as it's in the public domain that they have dismissed these issues far too many times recently without so much as even supplying a copy of the DVLA complaints procedure leaflet. If my complaint is not resolved properly my intention will be to involve my MP and refer the issue to the Parliamentary and Health Service Ombudsman.

I shall be pleased if you will let me have your confirmation that keeper details for this site by UKPC are now stopped.

I look forward to your reply in due course.

Regards,
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

REPLY FROM DVLA
Keya Lianne Nicholas (Keya.Nicholas@dvla.gsi.gov.uk)

　

14:40

　

To:XXXXXXXXXXX


　

Dear XXXXXXXXXXX

Thank you for your recent email regarding release of data to UKPC.

Unfortunately I cannot comment on the POPLA decision but I am however, able to confirm that UKPC no longer get vehicle keeper data from DVLA. If you require any further information please feel free to contact me.

Kind regards

Keya

Miss Keya Nicholas
Data Sharing Team

Strategy, Policy & Communications Directorate

Perhaps I should ask DVLA to confirm for how long UKPC can no longer get RK details. Their reply gives the impression that it is for ever!!.


I still await replies from BPA and ICO.

Also still await decision of POPLA re nephew's appeal at same car park. Will send emails re complaints again to DVLA/BPA/ICO as UKPC sent all the details about another completely different person to my nephew!!.

Hope this amuses everybody.















　

Umkomaas

Interesting - no longer get vehicle keeper detail ..... Presumably as a result of the photo-fraud?

First I've read of this.

The_Deep

So, the DVLA have suspended access, I wonder how long before they get summoned to the Mags court.


You might like to send press reports of UKPC's wrong doings to all the retailers who have a presence in the park.

enfield_freddy

1600 car parks , 50% of people pay up after notice on screen , they will only be @ucked on ANPR car parks

oh look , the recruitment has started http://www.ukpcjob.co.uk/jobs/

Umkomaas

enfield_freddy wrote: »

1600 car parks , 50% of people pay up after notice on screen , they will only be @ucked on ANPR car parks

oh look , the recruitment has started http://www.ukpcjob.co.uk/jobs/

Didn't realise they'd sacked that many! :rotfl: