Green, ethical, energy issues in the news

Martyn1981

There's a whole host of articles today in the Guardian on the subject of AGW, pollution, etc etc..

Obviously there is a political side to some, but might be of interest, here are just a couple of examples:

Revealed: top UK thinktank spent decades undermining climate science

The UK’s most influential conservative thinktank has published at least four books, as well as multiple articles and papers, over two decades suggesting manmade climate change may be uncertain or exaggerated.

How vested interests tried to turn the world against climate science

For decades fossil fuel majors tried to fight the consensus – just as big tobacco once disputed that smoking kills

Martyn1981

And now for something completely different, nope I lied, just as depressing, but less political.

Worth a read, and also consideration that the costs already exist (mostly as AGW), but we just don't see/appreciate them. Can't summarise with selected extracts as it's too big of an issue, but here are some keys bits to start off:

Carbon taxes have to rise sharply to avoid climate crisis, says IMF

Avoiding dangerous global heating will require governments around the world to impose stringent taxes on fossil-fuel usage that will mean a 43% jump in household energy bills over the next decade, the International Monetary Fund has said.

The Washington-based Fund said the battle against climate change could only be won if the average carbon tax levied by its member states increased from $2 (£1.63) a ton (907kg) to $75 a ton.

The IMF said governments worried about a political backlash against big increases in the cost of heating homes and motoring, and should use the extra revenue raised from the tax to compensate consumers.

“To make carbon taxes politically feasible and economically efficient, governments need to choose how to use the new revenue. Options include cutting other kinds of taxes, supporting vulnerable households and communities, increasing investment in green energy or simply returning the money to people as a dividend.”

The IMF economists said governments could target financial help directly at workers and communities disproportionately affected by the carbon tax instead of paying a flat-rate dividend to everybody. Restricting compensation to the poorest 40% of households would leave three-quarters of the revenue from the carbon tax for investment in green energy, innovation or to fund the UN’s anti-poverty 2030 sustainable development goals.

GreatApe

Martyn1981 wrote: »

And now for something completely different, nope I lied, just as depressing, but less political.

Worth a read, and also consideration that the costs already exist (mostly as AGW), but we just don't see/appreciate them. Can't summarise with selected extracts as it's too big of an issue, but here are some keys bits to start off:

Carbon taxes have to rise sharply to avoid climate crisis, says IMF

My neighbor 85 year old man he lives alone he uses about 30,000 units of gas to keep the place warm

You want to add another £400 onto his gas bill with your carbon taxes
How does this help his health or wellbeing?

Who is to blame if he can not afford this extra burden and dies trying to save a few units of natural gas to appease the martys of the world?

And your taxes won't get him to close his gas he will keep heating the home because like most people he would rather not die. Instead he will have to cut back elsewhere maybe in food maybe on cloths maybe on travel. You are then forced to increase the tax further and further and further until he has no choice but to be cold. Why don't you just disconnect the nation's housing stock from the gas grid that's what you want to do

michaels

GreatApe wrote: »

My neighbor 85 year old man he lives alone he uses about 30,000 units of gas to keep the place warm

You want to add another £400 onto his gas bill with your carbon taxes
How does this help his health or wellbeing?

Who is to blame if he can not afford this extra burden and dies trying to save a few units of natural gas to appease the martys of the world?

And your taxes won't get him to close his gas he will keep heating the home because like most people he would rather not die. Instead he will have to cut back elsewhere maybe in food maybe on cloths maybe on travel. You are then forced to increase the tax further and further and further until he has no choice but to be cold. Why don't you just disconnect the nation's housing stock from the gas grid that's what you want to do

Ox perhaps it will make it worthwhile for him to insulate his home?

ABrass

Tax the gas, spend the money insulating council houses, then disconnect them from the gas grid. Expand that offer to pensioners too (means test it though, many old people have too much spare cash as it is).

Run the numbers so that it breaks even over the population but the benefits go to the poorest to start with, then scale out to the better off. Logical extension of what is done now.

GreatApe

michaels wrote: »

Ox perhaps it will make it worthwhile for him to insulate his home?

It's a solid brick house
External insulation is very expensive and for most people undesirable and I doubt most people would know where to begin

The reality is we need cheap energy to live happy healthy lives
This means if we are to get away from fossil fuels we need electricity to be cheaper much cheaper
The alternative is, just like Germany is realising, this is going to be more difficult and more slow than you imagine/hope

If the energy companies are willing to insulate his home for him great but even then he will probably find the loan and repayments of cost to do the work are more per month than his current setup.

And unlikely being able to turn the heat down and be cold and accept the higher risk of death and I'll heath he won't be able to do anything to get away from the monthly payments that he will need to make thanks to the 'free' insulation he was so kindly given

GreatApe

ABrass wrote: »

Tax the gas, spend the money insulating council houses, then disconnect them from the gas grid. Expand that offer to pensioners too (means test it though, many old people have too much spare cash as it is).

Run the numbers so that it breaks even over the population but the benefits go to the poorest to start with, then scale out to the better off. Logical extension of what is done now.

This assumes insulation is affordable or always makes sense
Insulate where it is economical. Where it isn't?
And then you switch from 3p nat gas to 15p electricity?

On the example of a solid brick house that needs 25,000 heat
Let's say the insulation reduces this to 15,000 heat
But the solid wall insulation costs £15,000 and requires a loan over 20 years and this needs to be paid back at £83 a month

The household also needs to purchase £2,250 per year in electricity post retrofit
While they were able to purchase £900 in gas pre this grand idea

Their energy bill has more than doubled from £900 to £2250
And they also have a £83 per month loan for the solid wall insulation work
Great....where do I sign up

Let's install a heat pump for this family for £15,000 now since we are flush with cash
Their bill is perhaps now only £800 so great a £100 per year saving
But they have a £166 per month bill for the capital works
So their heating cost is still up £1,900 post this grand idea

Where do I sign up?
Without accounting tricks it doesn't work
With accounting tricks doing it nationally would bankrupt the government

GreatApe

If you're willing to socialise it A national heating service
'Free' insulation to the max 'Free' heat pumps for All

Done perhaps over a 20 year period (I can't imagine there is the workforce to upgrade significantly upto 28 million homes)

Then maybe you can do it but if the average cost is £20,000 and you do 25 million homes that's £25 billion a year we would need to pay in extra taxes. maybe add it to council tax. Every property in the land has their council tax bill put up by £1350 (assuming two thirds pay their council tax and one third get a benefit to cover it)

So there you go
Save on your gas bill some 5-20 years later, by paying £1350 a year today in extra taxes per non poor household. Sounds like a bargain....

GreatApe

ABrass wrote: »

Tax the gas, spend the money insulating council houses, then disconnect them from the gas grid. Expand that offer to pensioners too (means test it though, many old people have too much spare cash as it is).

Run the numbers so that it breaks even over the population but the benefits go to the poorest to start with, then scale out to the better off. Logical extension of what is done now.

You think too small
If the magic money trees is available
Why not just knock down all the homes and replace them with passive houses

There you go,
we just need the will
Because money resources people time none of those matter it's just will that is all important, we will will into existence wealth and happiness and unicorns two per head of population

silverwhistle

michaels wrote: »

Ox perhaps it will make it worthwhile for him to insulate his home?

I don't normally approve [stern look ;-)] of people quoting GA, but I'm going to thank you anyway; both for your comment and the quote. The latter has just confirmed my decision to put him on ignore. Appalling spelling, syntax, punctuation and ridiculous arguments.


I'm single and have a 3 bedroom house that uses far, far less fuel, so your solution is an obvious one. Or do as my late 80's mum did, move in to a warm, easily maintained and convenient flat.



Why doesn't GA not go round to the neighbour, who they obviously know well if they know how many kWh of gas they are using, and offer to help with the insulation? A bit of draught-proofing and loft insulation is dead easy and could assuage their oh, so great concern for the poor and cold and taxed..