Green, ethical, energy issues in the news

Martyn1981

michaels wrote: »

Ox perhaps it will make it worthwhile for him to insulate his home?

Spot on. And I have to say if that neighbour is consuming 30,000kWh's of gas per year then there is something very wrong (or very untrue).

Our house is a classic (as in common as muck) 1930's semi-detached and we use around 7,000kWh's of gas p.a. which includes DHW and the oven. In fact this year looks like being 6,000kWh.

Our EPC is an A, and has a heating need of 13,000kWh's stated, which would be the figure for a bad year, presumably.

I'm currently helping my sister review options for a house they are moving into in 3 weeks or so. It's massive (and will be a home and business centre for them), even at the current EPC of a low E (we are aiming for C+) it's rated at 39,000kWh's for heating.

And lastly, if GA is really concerned about how his neighbour, and others will cope, then as the article, and I suspect all of us (like you) suggest, the tax revenue should be used for energy reduction, such as better insulation and cheaper heating for that neighbour. If they had an ASHP, then with the falling FF element of leccy, the tax burden would also drop over time.

But here's the kicker - grants for low carbon heating already exist, and the RHI for heat pumps is very generous, so over a 7yr period should repay the cost of the install.

So the identified problem appears extreme and exaggerated, the tax and spend suggestion would solve this, and existing schemes already exist, the only tweek needed would be to grant fund the install instead of paying back over time.

GreatApe

Martyn1981 wrote: »

Spot on. And I have to say if that neighbour is consuming 30,000kWh's of gas per year then there is something very wrong (or very untrue).

Our house is a classic (as in common as muck) 1930's semi-detached and we use around 7,000kWh's of gas p.a. which includes DHW and the oven. In fact this year looks like being 6,000kWh.

Our EPC is an A, and has a heating need of 13,000kWh's stated, which would be the figure for a bad year, presumably.

I'm currently helping my sister review options for a house they are moving into in 3 weeks or so. It's massive (and will be a home and business centre for them), even at the current EPC of a low E (we are aiming for C+) it's rated at 39,000kWh's for heating.

And lastly, if GA is really concerned about how his neighbour, and others will cope, then as the article, and I suspect all of us (like you) suggest, the tax revenue should be used for energy reduction, such as better insulation and cheaper heating for that neighbour. If they had an ASHP, then with the falling FF element of leccy, the tax burden would also drop over time.

But here's the kicker - grants for low carbon heating already exist, and the RHI for heat pumps is very generous, so over a 7yr period should repay the cost of the install.

So the identified problem appears extreme and exaggerated, the tax and spend suggestion would solve this, and existing schemes already exist, the only tweek needed would be to grant fund the install instead of paying back over time.

Solid brick 150sqm semi they consume a lot

Going to a heat pump does not help Gas is 3p electricity closer to 15p
If they get a COP of 3x the electricity will cost 65% more than the gas
Plus the cost of the upkeep of the heat pump
RHI is not magic it's indirect payment. The solution to 'this is unaffordable' can't be 'the government will pay for it' at least not for a significant number because the government has no money of its own it has to come from taxes one way or another.

How much would a national insulation service cost?
25 million homes X £20k each
Insulation and heat pump
Done over 20 years free but taxes go up perhaps adding it to council tax
Will cost £25 billion a year
Or £1.3k per household per year for 20 years (excluding the poor ones that have no money)
And this doesn't cut their heating bill to zero it just transfers it from gas to electricity
If their heat demand falls 30% with the heat pump the cost of the electricity will be the same as the gas was previously. So this £1,300 extra on council tax is a real cost no savings. £500 gas bill become a £500 electricity bill.

But I'm sure you can figure out some accounting trick and the tooth fairy can fun it so it costs no one na-fing

ed110220

I think you're being rather generous accepting the existence of this 'neighbour', who is probably of PIDOOMA extraction and exists only as rhetorical device

Before doing any improvements on our 1940s semi, we were using less than 10,000 kWh/year. That was for a house that was particularly draughty even for its age due to the construction involving interconnected wall and floor voids that let cold air in through every gap between floorboards, holes in plasterboard drylining etc.

If this unfortunate pensioner really does exist, it's an argument for improving their homes insulation not some crude, populist appeal to reduce gas prices.

GreatApe

ed110220 wrote: »

I think you're being rather generous accepting the existence of this 'neighbour', who is probably of PIDOOMA extraction and exists only as rhetorical device

Before doing any improvements on our 1940s semi, we were using less than 10,000 kWh/year. That was for a house that was particularly draughty even for its age due to the construction involving interconnected wall and floor voids that let cold air in through every gap between floorboards, holes in plasterboard drylining etc.

If this unfortunate pensioner really does exist, it's an argument for improving their homes insulation not some crude, populist appeal to reduce gas prices.

There is no appeal to reduce gas prices, gas prices are affordable thanks to shale gas
The appeal is to not ban gas directly or indirectly
To not put a huge carbon tax on natural gas

We don't want to go back to the 1970s and before then when most homes did not have central heating because the fuel with all its requirements was too expensive for the average incomes
Coal and town gas existed but relative to wages and taking their efficiency into account they were expensive

So most people didn't heat their homes very much and didn't use as much hit water for the same reason of expense and difficulty instead they just died sooner got dicker more often. Thankfully North sea gas deposits were discovered and millions of UK lives were saved and hundreds of millions of sick days avoided. The health and healing externalities of affordable fossil fuels :beer:

zeupater

ed110220 wrote: »

I think you're being rather generous accepting the existence of this 'neighbour', who is probably of PIDOOMA extraction and exists only as rhetorical device

Before doing any improvements on our 1940s semi, we were using less than 10,000 kWh/year. That was for a house that was particularly draughty even for its age due to the construction involving interconnected wall and floor voids that let cold air in through every gap between floorboards, holes in plasterboard drylining etc.

If this unfortunate pensioner really does exist, it's an argument for improving their homes insulation not some crude, populist appeal to reduce gas prices.

Hi

Before we started on the long haul of efficiency improvements we regularly pushed annual gas usage over 40MWh ... but there were reasons and they were pretty simple to address ...

Firstly, the house is pretty large compared to what would be considered an 'average' property and has a gallery landing above a pretty large hallway and although pretty well insulated when built, the heating system wasn't thermostatically zoned .... it used to be the case that when walking up stairs there was a point where you noticed a steep temperature gradient within 2 or 3 stairs, consequentially the bedrooms were more than 'comfortably' warm throughout deepest winter when the heating was concentrating on temperatures downstairs with the unnecessarily raised temperatures upstairs simply increasing the rate of energy-loss through the ceilings/roof (~200sqm) ....

Zoned heating & massively increasing loft insulation (~500%) has made an enormous difference, add in all of the other improvements we've made over the years and we have really low gas usage now, averaging ~1MWh per year ...

In terms of GA's (likely mythical!) 'neighbour', if we had made no changes & were paying the same unit price for gas extrapolated (3.1p/kWh - which seems remarkably cheap!) then at 40MWh our annual bill (excluding standing charges) would be ~£1240/year, with the improvements made saving ~£1209/year (39/40), which is a considerable sum to balance costs of improvements against .... even applying a potential 43% carbon tax increase to this would result in ~£14 increase as opposed to the ~£530 according to the logic GA used would deem ... our savings would then stand at >1700/year! .... :rotfl:

The cheapest energy you'll ever buy is the energy you don't need to buy, but that probably doesn't fit too well with the narrative being made ...
... next thing you'll probably come across is that if a trial of heat pumps conducted a decade or so ago resolved to a COP of ~2.x it's unquestionable proof that the only realistic solution is to wait for Dilithium crystal powered generators to be marketed as historical sources tell us that they'll be invented at some time in the next 40 years ... If you know the tune, and it's likely you do (doesn't everyone! ) - whistle along now ...

:whistle::whistle::whistle:...
:whistle::whistle::whistle:,:whistle::whistle:..
:whistle::whistle:

HTH
Z

Solarchaser

Theres a 93 year old living in my house, always cold, it's a 3 bed semi brick house, so we will be comparable to the fictional character created by great troll.

The 14000kwh of gas we use is enough to qualify as very high use without me having to double it to exaggerate.

joefizz

I, for one, believe him.


There was a house in the village near here that used to burn about the same in electricity...
...then the cops came and took all the weed away...
..was an aul fella as well...

Martyn1981

joefizz wrote: »

I, for one, believe him.


There was a house in the village near here that used to burn about the same in electricity...
...then the cops came and took all the weed away...
..was an aul fella as well...

I think I know the guy!




Time to go, I'm getting the munchies.

zeupater

joefizz wrote: »

I, for one, believe him.


There was a house in the village near here that used to burn about the same in electricity...
...then the cops came and took all the weed away...
..was an aul fella as well...

Hi

Considering the content of most of the posts GA makes, maybe it's related ....
... <thought experiment> if the neighbouring property's extractor fan is upwind, perhaps the assumption of conscious uber-trolling is unfair & all we see is the result of a permanent mind altered state .... :think: .... possibly not though as that would dictate that the wind direction would be far too consistent ..... back to the original conclusion then! ...

gefnew

Huge wind farms for dogger bank.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-humber-49767953