Listed Building Consent

sparkly_sun

I'm very close to exchanging on a Grade II listed property and am gutted to find out that the current owners have been numpty enough to make alterations without obtaining Listed Building Consent. They have changed rotten windows on a like for like basis and at first claimed that like for like doesn't need consent (wrong) and then claimed that they had been told "off the record" that their part of the property (it's a flat) isn't actually listed but the property below is (mostly probably wrong and how can anyone even think off the record is an ok basis to go with? Madness!)

I just can't believe how stupid they can be and I'm regrettably ready to walk unless they get retrospective LBC (unlikely). I've spent £2k on fees and will have to move back with my parents as I have buyers ready to move in to my place.

The flat was on sale before and the purchase fell through at the very end of the proceess last time. The estate agent told me it was because the buyers couldn't get their finances together but I'm now very suspicious that this wasn't the case.

If the vendors refuse to get LBC would I have any grounds to pursue a legal case to recover costs? I know this is also unlikely but I'm damn mad and angry enough to try.

G_M

sparkly_sun wrote: »

If the vendors refuse to get LBC would I have any grounds to pursue a legal case to recover costs? I know this is also unlikely but I'm damn mad and angry enough to try.

Well you could get your solicitor to build into the contract some clause making them responsible for any later costs relating to their non-compliance.

Enforcing it and getting the money 6, 12 months down the line might be fun!

And/or get your solicitor to hold a 'retainer' for a specified period of time ie an amount (how much????) of the purchase price held back just in case. After a year (??), if there are no issues, the seller gets the cash.

Indemnity Insurance might be possible. It's common where Planning Permission has not been obtained but I'm not sure about listed Building consent.

phoebe1989seb

sparkly_sun wrote: »

The flat was on sale before and the purchase fell through at the very end of the proceess last time. The estate agent told me it was because the buyers couldn't get their finances together but I'm now very suspicious that this wasn't the case.

If the vendors refuse to get LBC would I have any grounds to pursue a legal case to recover costs? I know this is also unlikely but I'm damn mad and angry enough to try.

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I thought that these days estate agents etc had a duty of disclosure and legally had to inform prospective buyers of any reasons for previous sales falling through. If, as you suggest, the previous sale fell through due to lack of LBC as opposed to the buyers' finances, I would have thought the EA would have to tell the truth.....

davidmcn

sparkly_sun wrote: »

They have changed rotten windows on a like for like basis and at first claimed that like for like doesn't need consent (wrong)

Er, I would say right rather than wrong, if it's actually like for like. Or is it not really like for like?

G_M

If it's truly like for like ie rotten window replaced by identical rotten window.......

Shahni

G_M wrote: »

Indemnity Insurance might be possible. It's common where Planning Permission has not been obtained but I'm not sure about listed Building consent.

I would explore this route ^

Had the same issue previously, the sellers agreed to pay for an indemnity policy. We had to have a custom one and it set the sellers back a pretty penny, but it was doable.

anselld

The problem with indemnity is that it prevents the enforcing authority being informed or consulted which would make life difficult in the future since it may prevent consultations on any issue for fear of alerting the existence of unauthorised work.

There are two issues to consider ...

Prosecution - permitting unauthorised work to a listed building is a criminal offence, however only the original perpetrator can be prosecuted. I would think it is therefore important for your solicitor to establish a statement from the vendors that they carried out the work.

Enforcement action - if the windows really are like-for-like then it is impossible for any sensible enforcement action to be taken; what could you replace with which would be any more "like" than you have? So are you able to actually confirm the match to the original?

Ultimately, as you have suggested, retrospective permission would be best for you but the vendor may be reluctant to expose themselves to the risk of prosecution.

Finaly, you have no route to reclaim your expense if the sale fails prior to exchange. I am sure the EA reason for previous failure would have been sufficiently vague as to avoid a misrepresentation claim. You could always force the issue by reporting the breach to the conservation officer yourself if you are feeling particularly vindictive about it.

leveller2911

davidmcn wrote: »

Er, I would say right rather than wrong, if it's actually like for like. Or is it not really like for like?

Sorry but thats not correct.

Work carried out to a Listed Property will require Listed Planning Conscent. The Conservation officers at the local Authority will decide if they want the windows to be repaired, replaced "like for like" or even allow the replacing of the windows but with double glazed units. The replacing "Like for like" without Listed conscent is incorrect ,it doesn't exist.

Its also worth mentioning that when a property is Listed its will be listed because a certain part of the property will have historic merit. It may be the type of carving on the Oak beams,if it has a king post,queen post in the roof design or a tiled floor but the whole property including any garden,garden walls etc will be included within the Listed. This means you can't even rebuild the garden wall or replace the garden gate without Listed Planning permission.


To the OP:

With regards to maintenance and alterations etc to Listed properties they can be a money pit and I would never encourage anyone to buy a Listed property. A few years ago the Government changed the VAT rules on Listed properties which meant that owners could not claim back the VAT on alterations carried out. There really should be some tax relief for owners for maintaining their historic buildings becuae many are not being maintained because its very expensive.

You need to ask yourself if they have carried out this work without LBC what else have they carried out without conscent. Some people should never be allowed to own a Listed property. In replacing the windows without permission the historic context is lost which is a real shame.

Doozergirl

It may well be that LBC is required for like for like basis, but there simply aren't the resources to go around enforcing on people who replace like for like without it.

The worst that would happen is that at some future point, conservation are invited to discuss LBC for a new alteration and voice an opinion, at which point, rather than going for enforcement and handing out criminal records, they might ask that the windows are changed again. If they were a genuine like for like, the liklihood of that happening is close to zero.

If the property has a grade 2 listing, the risk cost, I think, is the price of new windows. It's a personal choice, but a price reduction would pay for that risk. I wouldn't pull out, personally, but I've got experience of conservation and they're pretty unconcerned with what has already happened and so far have just voiced that they would like to see something changed, if possible!

leveller2911

anselld wrote: »

Enforcement action - if the windows really are like-for-like then it is impossible for any sensible enforcement action to be taken; what could you replace with which would be any more "like" than you have? So are you able to actually confirm the match to the original?

I agree with the rest of your post anselld but not the above.

A Conservation officer will look at the current windows and decide (even if they were exact copies of the previous windows) if they are correct to the age of the building. Consider that the previous windows,although may have been there for 50 years or even replaced by a former owner a few years before the current owner replaced them theres no guarantee any of the windows were "right" for the property..

Houses,styles etc change over time and the CO will decide what style of window they want the house to have. The property may be an early Georgian house where over time every window except one is victorian but the CO can decide they want all the new windows to match the single Georgian one. As I posted previously "like for like" means nothing unless its decided by the CO and even then they will want scaled drawings of the proposed windows includes all the moulding details.

80% of my work is on Listed properties and sometimes I come across houses where the windows are 1980's aluminium , fitted without conscent and the CO decides what style they want the house to have but its impossible to know what style of windows it had previously to the alluminium ones, they may be 1940,s Crittal windows but it doesn't mean the CO will want Crittals put back.

barbaraemmerson

We are currently getting our daughters windows repaired - a grade 2 listed building in a conservation area. If we are doing exactly like for like we do not need planning permission - if we are in any way altering them - i.e. putting in double glazing then we do - even if they look the same from the road - and she is on the fifth floor! Her windows are side hinged opening but originally they were sash and case - if we wish to put them back to the original sash and case then we need permission - crazy! We have opted to get them repaired - much easier!!
It also depends what rules were in place when the windows were altered!