How will the economy be affected by SNP MPs; will it be for richer or for poorer and

Generali

.string. wrote: »

I wonder if that will be in their next manifesto? I suspect that is a lose/lose dilemma for the SNP, deciding how to explain their taxing policy. Sulking in the corner wailing for Magic Powers won't be entirely convincing.

Presumably there comes a point where the SNP wants to spend more than England than in Scotland and has to pony up some money.

That's where it all falls apart for the SNP unless.....

.....they can persuade the Scots that there were billions in oil money that were spent by the Tories on throwing the Scots out of work and that the money can somehow be clawed back.

It's that or independence and we already asked Scottish people if they wanted to leave the UK and they didn't.

So what to do???

FFA seems the obvious solution. (I know its been voted down).

Let the SNP put up true FFA and let the Scottish parliament deal with the consequences. I would recommend separate British and Scottish education and health cards to deal with the aftermath.


Clearly Scotland's system would be so amazing that some system would need to be in place to stop people in the North of England to bleed it dry.

.string.

As I recall, SNP policy includes raising income tax on rich people who earn over 150K£/year. That would certainly increase economic activity (though not in Scotland).

kabayiri

.string. wrote: »

As I recall, SNP policy includes raising income tax on rich people who earn over 150K£/year. That would certainly increase economic activity (though not in Scotland).

You do realise String, that this thread has morphed into the old one; ie "all about Scotland", and very little about the UK economy.

Valiant attempt though

Shakethedisease

elantan wrote: »

They have had tax raising powers already, they didn't use them

That's because the tax raising powers as they were, were useless. Labour didn't use them either remember.. I imagine because they also thought that the tax raising powers were useless too.

Shakethedisease

Generali wrote: »

Presumably there comes a point where the SNP wants to spend more than England than in Scotland and has to pony up some money.

That's where it all falls apart for the SNP unless.....

.....they can persuade the Scots that there were billions in oil money that were spent by the Tories on throwing the Scots out of work and that the money can somehow be clawed back.

It's that or independence and we already asked Scottish people if they wanted to leave the UK and they didn't.

So what to do???

FFA seems the obvious solution. (I know its been voted down).

Let the SNP put up true FFA and let the Scottish parliament deal with the consequences. I would recommend separate British and Scottish education and health cards to deal with the aftermath.

You don't make sense. You know FFA has been voted down, but want to 'let the SNP put up true FFA' ?

Clearly Scotland's system would be so amazing that some system would need to be in place to stop people in the North of England to bleed it dry.

Not really. The Scottish NHS has always been separate. And a reciprocal arrangement exists between NHS Scotland and NHS England for cross border treatments, as it does for separate NHS systems within the UK. I'd imagine that wouldn't change. NHS England would still have to pay for NHS England patients treatment. So there would be no bleeding dry.

.string.

kabayiri wrote: »

You do realise String, that this thread has morphed into the old one; ie "all about Scotland", and very little about the UK economy.

Valiant attempt though

!
Thanks
Leaving aside the rather nitpicking point that Scotland is part of the UK, I do agree that this thread, like most others, sometimes deviates from it's origin!

In discussion threads I think I've only started two which kept more or less to the straight and narrow, one was about "Good News" which needed some effort to keep it honest and the other was about FIFA, a subject which attracted few posters anyway so that it stayed (stays) more or less on topic.

This thread is essentially about the tactics and consequences of the SNP element in Westminster and lies at the interface between politics and the economy. Those two things are pretty well intertwined anyway, especially when one enters the realm of muddled fantasy economics so adored by the SNP.

.string.

Shakethedisease wrote: »

You don't make sense. You know FFA has been voted down, but want to 'let the SNP put up true FFA' ?

Well what the SNP proposed wasn't "true" FFA (yes I know thou wrote - way back actually before the GE) that a gradual process was envisaged) it was, to quote, a shambles of an idea.

But then it was never for real was it and, thankfully, Scots have been spared a taste of real austerity. For that and other good reasons I'm glad it is effectively off the table.

Shakethedisease

.string. wrote: »

Well what the SNP proposed wasn't "true" FFA (yes I know thou wrote - way back actually before the GE) that a gradual process was envisaged) it was, to quote, a shambles of an idea.

But then it was never for real was it and, thankfully, Scots have been spared a taste of real austerity. For that and other good reasons I'm glad it is effectively off the table.

That still doesn't make what Generali posted make any sense.

13:02Monday 22 June 2015
JOHN Swinney has said that changes to the Scotland Bill could give Holyrood ministers a “better mix of tools” to grow the economy, tackle poverty and create a fairer society as he restated the SNP’s call for full fiscal autonomy.


The draft clauses proposed by SNP ministers include giving Holyrood full fiscal autonomy, which would see the Scottish Parliament take responsibility for taxation and key elements of domestic expenditure.

The Scottish Government has also set out what powers it believes should be devolved as a priority - including the ability to set the minimum wage, responsibility over employment policy north of the border and responsibility for both working age benefits and benefits related children.

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/john-swinney-steps-up-calls-for-full-fiscal-autonomy-1-3809043

All will be voted down again (for the third time) of course. But that's entirely the point.

Generali

So if we look at the actual amendments to the Scotland Bill that have been proposed:

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/bills/cbill/2015-2016/0003/amend/pbc031906a.pdf

the only amendments relating to FFA are to set up a commission to look into FFA.

Mr Swinney, as an MSP, of course can't propose amendments to the Scotland Bill so all we have here is a lot of what Aussies call 'jawboning'.

The SNP had better get on with it if they are going to put in a clause granting Scotland FFA. They haven't done it yet.

“Independent Commission on Full Fiscal Autonomy
(1) The Secretary of State shall appoint a commission of between four and eleven members to conduct an analysis of the impact of full fiscal autonomy on the Scottish economy, labour market and public finances and to report by 31 March 2016.
(2) No Member of the House of Commons or of the Scottish Parliament may be a member of the commission.
(3) No employee of the Scottish Government or of any government Department or agency anywhere in the United Kingdom may be a member of the commission.
(4) The Secretary of State shall appoint as members of the commission only persons who appear to the Secretary of State to hold a relevant qualification or to have relevant experience.
(5) The Secretary of State shall not appoint as a member of the commission any person who is a member of a political party.
(6) Before appointing any member of the commission, the Secretary of State must consult—
(a) the Chair of any select committee appointed by the House of Commons to consider Scottish affairs, and
(b) the Chair of any select committee appointed by the House of Commons to examine the expenditure, administration and policy of Her Majesty’s Treasury and its associated public bodies.
(7) The Secretary of State may by regulations issue the commission with terms of reference and guidelines for the commission’s working methods, including an outline definition of the policy of full fiscal autonomy for the commission to analyse.
(8) The Secretary of State must lay copies of the report of the commission before both Houses of Parliament, and must transmit a copy of the report of the commission to the presiding officer of the Scottish Parliament.
(9) Regulations under this section must be made by statutory instrument, subject to annulment in pursuance of a resolution of either House of Parliament.” Member’s explanatory statement
This New Clause requires the Secretary of State for Scotland to establish an independent commission of external experts, appointed in consultation with the Treasury Select Committee and Scottish Affairs Select Committee, to publish a report by 31 March 2016 setting out an analysis of the policy of Full Fiscal Autonomy on the Scottish economy, labour market and public finances.

This amendment was proposed by Ian Murray (Lab), Wayne David (Lab) and Douglas Carswell (UKIP).

So despite all the hot air, the only amendment to the Scotland Bill submitted so far relating to FFA was submitted by 2 Labour MPs and 1 UKIP MP.

As the Bill is already at the committee stage with day 1 of 4 having sat (days 2 and 3 are 29th and 30th June with the date of the 4th day to be decided), the SNP had better pull their fingers out if they are going to but forward an amendment for consideration.

According to the SNP's website, the proposed amendment wouldn't introduce FFA, it would instead allow the Scottish Parliament to introduce FFA at a time of its choosing:

http://www.snp.org/media-centre/news/2015/jun/snp-table-amendment-scotland-bill

The SNP amendment would give the Scottish Parliament the legislative competence to remove the reservation on taxation, borrowing and public expenditure, allowing the Scottish Parliament to legislate to deliver full fiscal autonomy.

You know, it sounds to me like the SNP don't actually want FFA any more. If they wanted FFA, why not propose an amendment to the Scotland Bill granting FFA, or introducing it in a 'gradual way'?

elantan

.string. wrote: »

I wonder if that will be in their next manifesto? I suspect that is a lose/lose dilemma for the SNP, deciding how to explain their taxing policy. Sulking in the corner wailing for Magic Powers won't be entirely convincing.

Ahhhh but you forget these magic powers are Devo to the max, near federalism .... With those powers who could fail