How will the economy be affected by SNP MPs; will it be for richer or for poorer and

Shakethedisease

browniej wrote: »

Yet it isn't as the clause is still there in the Scotland Bill and does exactly what was promised. No need for any other clause that weakens the first one.

You're talking nit-picky legal and clauses. And surely it is only sensible that if Holyrood is to be dissolved, that the Scottish Govt at the time, and the Scottish electorate themselves have a say at least ? Labour voted with the SNP, so it seems the amendment wasn't any problem for them either. Just the Conservatives.

Now there's a surprise that you don't agree.

Ah yes. The problem being that there definitely about 1.6 million that don't agree either. And a fair swathe of No voters who also would on balance now, probably disagree also.

We all agree that :- The Scottish Parliament is permanent...

.. Until the Tories at the first chance they get after the referendum, say and vote otherwise. As predicted by about 1.6 million Scottish voters on 18th Sept.

Generali

Shakethedisease wrote: »

Then why vote against it as the Tories did ? I agree though. The Scottish Government isn't permanent and in theory Westminster could abolish it. This government can't bind future ones to its permanence while Scotland remains part of the union anyway.

The fact this this was voted against was hugely symbolic rather than anything else. Which is why I said there was no real reason for the Tories to vote against it. But they did so anyway. All the amendment meant would've been the Scottish government having options and a possible referendum should Westminster decide to get rid of Holyrood in future.

Very instructive for the path the Tories intend taking re Scotland and it's MP's, don't you think ?

http://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/scottish-politics/lord-smith-future-uk-government-could-dissolve-holyrood-despite-cross-par.113825952

It's only hugely symbolic of the SNP not understanding how the British Constitution works.

No UK Parliament can bind future ones. That's British Constitution 101, lesson 1.

padington

This stil a topic ? The Nats lost the referendum and lost gaining control of number 10 on their one big chance, made visiting Scotland very unattractive by stirring hatred and then killed our favourite politician.

I would have kept quiet for a while if I were them.

browniej

Shakethedisease wrote: »

You're talking nit-picky legal and clauses.

No I'm talking about the UK Constitution.

And surely it is only sensible that if Holyrood is to be dissolved, that the Scottish Govt at the time, and the Scottish electorate themselves have a say at least ?

Do you really feel that if any future UK government really wanted to dissolve the Scottish Parliament, they are going to simply allow the Scottish Govt and electorate to simply say no? You and the SNP are even more deluded than I thought if that's the case.

If the UK government really wanted to do this in the future, then all they have to do is repeal Clause 1b and then repeal Clause 1a.

And a fair swathe of No voters who also would on balance now, probably disagree also.

Facts to back up that assertion?

.. Until the Tories at the first chance they get after the referendum, say and vote otherwise. As predicted by about 1.6 million Scottish voters on 18th Sept.

Only in SNP speak though. The Scotland Bill still contains the clause

"(1A) A Scottish Parliament is recognised as a permanent part of the United Kingdom’s constitutional arrangements."

and the Tories are still committed to passing the Bill.

Perhaps the SNP and its followers should let them get on with the job of getting it passed instead of coming up with meaningless amendments that simply slow down the whole process. However I suspect, as usual, it's a deliberate ploy by the SNP to attempt to show up the UK Government as being "the bad ones".

kabayiri

Generali wrote: »

To be fair, it probably has in Scotland.

Retail sales are going backwards (down 0.9%), whisky exports are down, oil output is down.

I see that UK unemployment figures have fallen yet again.

I see what the SNP mean now. This is all just part of a devious plan by Mr Osborne to make Scotland look bad!

Shakethedisease

Generali wrote: »

It's only hugely symbolic of the SNP not understanding how the British Constitution works.

No UK Parliament can bind future ones. That's British Constitution 101, lesson 1.

Yes it is. Which is why the Vow was a load of tosh ( and why I and many others voted Yes knowing it was ).

We agree that :- The Scottish Parliament is permanent...

David Cameron/Ed Miliband/Nick Clegg.

I can't see above where the SNP was involved in saying that the UK Parliament can bind future ones last September ? British Constitution 101, Lesson 1 seems to have been completely missed by the current British Prime Minister however...

You're making the mistake of thinking that people like me believed a single word of it. It's those that did believe it, and perhaps voted No on the basis of the promises made at the time that are feeling a bit silly now. The Scottish Parliament isn't permanent like they said.. Lesson No 1. That the Vow was never going to be delivered as promised, Lesson 2.

Generali

Shakethedisease wrote: »

Yes it is. Which is why the Vow was a load of tosh ( and why I and many others voted Yes knowing it was ).

David Cameron/Ed Miliband/Nick Clegg.

I can't see above where the SNP was involved in saying that the UK Parliament can bind future ones last September ? British Constitution 101, Lesson 1 seems to have been completely missed by the current British Prime Minister however...

You're making the mistake of thinking that people like me believed a single word of it. It's those that did believe it, and perhaps voted No on the basis of the promises made at the time that are feeling a bit silly now. The Scottish Parliament isn't permanent like they said.. Lesson No 1. That the Vow was never going to be delivered as promised, Lesson 2.

If you want a permanent promise that anything will be unaltered forever you will be disappointed!

Maybe if you keep tugging at The Vow you'll get independence. Maybe it'll just spit. (An old Aussie expression)

Shakethedisease

browniej wrote: »

No I'm talking about the UK Constitution.

No you're talking about an amendment to the Scotland Bill that was put before parliament two days ago.

Do you really feel that if any future UK government really wanted to dissolve the Scottish Parliament, they are going to simply allow the Scottish Govt and electorate to simply say no?

Err yes. I 100% do think the Scottish electorate should have a say if Westminster ever decides to dissolve Holyrood. I'm surprised you would think otherwise ? Most Scots would as it affects aspects of their daily lives and finances.

You and the SNP are even more deluded than I thought if that's the case.

And you started off so politely too. Not deluded. Sensible. And using the words 'simply allow' the Scottish Govt to block Westminster plans to dissolve their own parliament.. is hardly the language of someone who respects Scottish politics and what Holyrood means to Scots residents anyway.

If the UK government really wanted to do this in the future, then all they have to do is repeal Clause 1b and then repeal Clause 1a.

I suppose they could have a stab at trying. In theory.

Facts to back up that assertion?

1.6 million-ish Scots residents voted Yes. Which QED means obviously, that they disagree with Westminster being able to dissolve the Scottish Parliament. Or that Westminster should 'simply disallow' the Scottish Government from being able to prevent such an action. In fact, they don't want Westminster have any powers at all over the Scottish parliament.

Only in SNP speak though. The Scotland Bill still contains the clause

"(1A) A Scottish Parliament is recognised as a permanent part of the United Kingdom’s constitutional arrangements."

and the Tories are still committed to passing the Bill.

Perhaps the SNP and its followers should let them get on with the job of getting it passed instead of coming up with meaningless amendments that simply slow down the whole process. However I suspect, as usual, it's a deliberate ploy by the SNP to attempt to show up the UK Government as being "the bad ones".

The Devolution Committee in Scotland have been over this bill and the Smith Commission proposals with a fine tooth comb. Most of the amendments are suggestions from their very recent report. This is a cross party committee which consists of Conservative, Labour, Greens, Lib Dems and SNP MSP's. They think the bill as it is, is crap.
So, no, it's not a 'deliberate ploy' by the SNP. And if you've watched anything in parliament in relation to the Scotland Bill. You'll have heard Angus Robertson refer to the Devolution Committee's report on many, many occasions. After all, it's those MSP's in Holyrood that have to deal with the end result. A quick search on this issue would've shown you that as it stands. The Scotland Bill isn't acceptable to ANY political party that sits at Holyrood as it is. And that includes the Conservatives. :cool:

Plans for new Holyrood powers fall short of recommendations made by the cross-party backed Smith Commission, a report by MSPs has said.
The Devolution (Further Powers) Committee said the UK government's draft legislation did not meet the "spirit or substance" of Smith.
It added that parts of the plan required "extensive redrafting".
A Scotland Office spokesman responded by saying there would be a full parliamentary discussion to follow.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-32731463

I suggest you may want read up a little more on this subject next time. Either that or just bypass altogether posting about deep legal stuff. And simply move on to slagging the SNP and myself off as deluded, without bothering to to check a few facts, like everyone else does here. It'll save you a lot of time.

Shakethedisease

Generali wrote: »

If you want a permanent promise that anything will be unaltered forever you will be disappointed!

Maybe if you keep tugging at The Vow you'll get independence. Maybe it'll just spit. (An old Aussie expression)

I'm not disappointed ! Others who are less politically and legally aware are. The Vow was splashed across every newspaper and media outlet in Scotland for about 2 weeks before the referendum. Discussed, analysed and dissected. Gordon Brown and Alistair Darling also on every politics show and news channel in the country talking about 'Home Rule', 'Devo Max' and 'as close to federalism as you can possibly get'.

Hardly.. 'well actually, the Scottish parliament isn't actually permanent' and no govt can bind...and any amendments that allow Scots to have a say in it's dissolution in future.. we'll vote against. And for good reason, that Yes vote was getting scarily close in the polls at the time weren't they.

Rinoa

Interesting comments from Roseanna Cunningham, Scottish Govt's 'fair work' secretary, on todays unemployment figures.

The Scottish government's Fair Work Secretary, Roseanna Cunningham MSP, said the figures pushed Scotland "to the forefront of work to help people into jobs across Europe".


She added: "Youth unemployment is at its lowest level and rate in six years and female participation in the labour market continues to improve.
"There are also now 74,000 fewer Scots unemployed since the peak of the recession in 2010, great news for the economy, which is also making a difference to the lives of individual Scots.


"Today's news follows a range of activity to support more people into jobs including ensuring our colleges are fully focused on the employability of young people, highlighting the importance of apprenticeships and improved options on childcare to help more women back in the workforce."

Now, some people south of the border may think the massive falls in employment since the recession are due to the Conservatives handling of the economy. But apparently in Scotland it's all down to the brilliance of the SNP. :rotfl: