Boiler flue in void

movilogo

Moved to a house and my boiler was working fine. I had an existing Eon Home Entergy Service annual boiler maintenance contract which I ported from old house.


On initial inspection, the engineer said boiler flue is going to void and thus as per “safety regulation” he turned it off (I was not in home then – someone in my family was there who didn’t really understand what engineering said).


Looking at the information sheet, it is marked as “at risk” and NOT as “immediate danger”.


I tried to switch on the boiler myself which didn’t work. HES said they wouldn’t touch the boiler any more (as they condemned it) and they can’t install inspection hatch. I requested them to tell me how I can turn the boiler on myself but they refused to assist me. After lots of argument they agreed to cancel my contract.


HES engineer not only turned the boiler off but also disconnected the gas supply!


Then I called an independent gas registered engineer who said officially he can’t turn it on but he did it “unofficially”. He also examined the flue which is coming from chimney and said based on his experience, it seemed fine.
I also have a CO warning alarm fitted in the house.


Now my question is, how serious is this problem?
I had a look at this page - http://www.gassaferegister.co.uk/advice/flues_in_voids/frequently_asked_questions.aspx
It does not seem that it is a great danger.


The independent engineer said that flue is coming thru chimney. So even though he can install two inspection hatches in my bathroom (for which some tiles in the bathroom wall need to be taken out) ,still flue can’t be examined at its full length as it is coming thru chimney.


So what is the next step? Am I just getting paranoid or it is a real danger?

PS: It is a detached house built in 1970s. Boiler is appx 10 years old (Worcester Greenstar)

r2015

Am I just getting paranoid

No, gas engineers are.

One of the reasons (there are a lot more) I got rid of my warm air heating, I was told the same thing about my flue because it went through the upstairs ceiling/floor then into the attic.

It was OK this year but wouldn't be next year. It was OK 24 years ago though.


Then I got a quote for new heating.

I didn't pick BG though.

bridgedino

Flue in a void is considered At Risk

The problem being that it can't be properly inspected therefore it's impossible to say wether or not it is intact and safe or damaged and unsafe

Inspection hatches need to be at least 300mm x 300mm and positioned to allow full proper inspection

As can be the case, sadly in today's news, carbon monoxide and badly installed/serviced gas appliances can and do kill

Nothing to do with being paranoid at all. It's the law

movilogo

If flue pipe is hidden behind the wall, how one would know where exactly joints are? So where would they place the inspection hatches then?

Ectophile

movilogo wrote: »

If flue pipe is hidden behind the wall, how one would know where exactly joints are? So where would they place the inspection hatches then?

They wouldn't know. You would need enough hatches that they can see the entire length of the flue by looking from side to side through the hatches.

In effect, boxed-in flues are now all but banned.

johnpr98

There seems to be another option besides inspection hatches which complies with the regs http://www.no-co.co.uk/

How does NoCO comply with Gas Safe Register Technical Bulletin TB008 (edition 3)?

A. TB 008 is a guidance document which recommends the use of inspection hatches where this style of flue is installed. However Appendix 1, section 11 offers an alternative to hatches (in situations where a homeowner or tenant does not want a hatch fitted) in the form of a CO void monitoring safety shut off system (COSSVM). NoCO is a system to meet this requirement and will shut down the boiler in the event of CO being detected within a void.

More info
http://www.theheatxchange.co.uk/noco.html

This solution would cost me £200 + fitting, is it worth it for an old Baxi boiler? My dilemma after a Scottish Power engineer slapped a 'At Risk' Safety notice on me yesterday, he didn't mention the NoCO option and wouldn't service my boiler either!

I read somewhere that well serviced boilers don't emit Carbon Monoxide, so he (Scottish Power) may have put me at more risk if I do have a problem because I can still use the boiler at my own risk until I get a solution which I doubt will be this side of Christmas
http://www.gassaferegister.co.uk/advice/flues_in_voids/frequently_asked_questions.aspx

I haven’t had inspection hatches fitted. What does this mean for me?

If your gas engineer cannot examine the whole length of the flue they will advise you, in line with industry guidance, that it is 'At Risk', recommend that you do not use it and will ask your permission to turn it off. This is assuming that there are no other indications that your boiler is not safe, regardless of the unknown condition of the flue.

'At risk' is a risk classification used by gas engineers and means that your boiler and flue system could become dangerous in the future, in this case it is used because the engineer cannot examine the length of the flue to confirm it is safe. As a consumer you are within your rights to refuse permission for it to be turned off, however you will be asked to sign paperwork to confirm you accept responsibility for those defects identified in the system – in this case, the potential for fumes to escape unnoticed from the concealed flue into the property.

Your gas engineer can continue to work on your boiler including servicing it and undertaking maintenance work.

If you have had your boiler serviced since January 2011, your gas engineer should have made you aware of the need for inspection hatches, giving you time to consider what action to take.

There was no mention of this 'Flue in avoid' reg by a Scottish Power engineer in September 2014 (or 2013 by SSE), it makes me wonder about trusting some of the experts that are paid to keep us safe!

However they are the ones have to abide by the regs, except you find they haven't a year later as mentioned above!

My CO alarm is working with new batteries as my best short term defense over Christmas, the boiler should have been serviced in September which would have given me more fine weather time to ponder my New v Old solution.

Decisions!

McKneff

Mine was 'at risk' last year, last week at its annual service they found the flue was leaking in the roof void so they condemned the system. They also said that they would need inspection panels in the bedroom where the flue goes through, it wouldn't have been a big problem, it was just boxed in with plywood


British gas quoted £2,200 just to replace the flue. Gas safe Engineer quoted £600. but also said that we could fork out for the flue and the boiler, because it is old could just give up the ghost next week.


And since found out that British gas don't install new warm air systems any longer.



So, just decided to buy a new system

chappers

Flue in a void depends on several factors, if there are no joints then no problem and if fitted before this became a requirement then surely it should be marked as NCS(not to current standards).

johnpr98

chappers wrote: »

Flue in a void depends on several factors, if there are no joints then no problem and if fitted before this became a requirement then surely it should be marked as NCS(not to current standards).

That's how it used to be until circa 2012 apparently, the legislation or guidance has now changed, hence my current problem.

I'm at a loss how a chimney is a void (Designed to expel smoke fumes from the dwelling) in the same way as a boxed in flue, however there seems to be no differentiation.

spaceboy

johnpr98 wrote: »

That's how it used to be until circa 2012 apparently, the legislation or guidance has now changed, hence my current problem.

I'm at a loss how a chimney is a void (Designed to expel smoke fumes from the dwelling) in the same way as a boxed in flue, however there seems to be no differentiation.

A chimney is a void as there will be a flue running up it and at the top the flue will be sealed around the outside, so the chimney is a sealed void as only the flue exits to the outside.

johnpr98

spaceboy wrote: »

A chimney is a void as there will be a flue running up it and at the top the flue will be sealed around the outside, so the chimney is a sealed void as only the flue exits to the outside.

Thanks Spaceboy, that makes perfect sense now, It's a pity that fitting airbricks at the top of the chimbley wouldn't lessen the risk in case of a leak however these would need inspection as well.

Time to get a good heating adviser in, any recommendations for good firms or any that I need to steer clear of. I don't want to waste my time with commission lead know all's, I just need common sense best value recommendations to compare.