Sanctions' figures

rogerblack

merlin68 wrote: »

Benefits arent awarded on pain though. They are awarded if you meet the descriptors. None of which include pain.

Benefit descriptors vary.
For example - for ESA.

(a) Cannot either:
i) mobilise more than 50 metres on level ground without stopping in order to avoid significant discomfort or exhaustion;
ii) or repeatedly mobilise 50 metres within a reasonable timescale because of significant discomfort or exhaustion.

PIP requires that you can do things:

safely, to an acceptable standard, repeatedly, in a reasonable time period.

It does not specifically specify pain.

However, even neglecting pain, if pain slows you down so that you take twice as long as someone without a disability, or means you can't do it reliably, safely, ... then that means you can't do a thing.

If pain means that you reasonably avoid a task because of the pain, then you can't do it.

billywilly

rogerblack wrote: »

Benefit descriptors vary.
For example - for ESA.


PIP requires that you can do things:


It does not specifically specify pain.

However, even neglecting pain, if pain slows you down so that you take twice as long as someone without a disability, or means you can't do it reliably, safely, ... then that means you can't do a thing.

If pain means that you reasonably avoid a task because of the pain, then you can't do it.

As pain is a subjective matter, how can one actually prove that the level of pain claimed that causes those difficulties actually exists at that level?
I could argue that medical science indicates that my conditions would normally result in continuous debilitating pain 24/7. Yet I can function due to medication at a level of say 75% of that of a non disabled man 10 years younger than me. I could claim that my pain is as what medical opinion would expect.
Seriously in a case like mine and if the claimant wanted the benefit, they would not admit to anything other than what medical opinion would suggest is reasonable. Not to do so would result in talking yourself out of award.
How would you suggest that the DWP could disprove or even prove what are claimed as 'difficulties caused through pain'?

FBaby

Some of the attitudes on here are very difficult to read. I sincerely hope that none of you ever have to experience serious illness.

If you are referring to some of my posts, than I think you have misinterprated what I tried to convey. My perspective is that sickness benefits ARE designed to support people exactly like you now. You were working, you got hit with a serious condition that means you are severely affected, not just when at work, but also in terms of doing the enjoyable things you used to do before you fell ill. You should be looked after.

If you reach the point that your treatment means that you can start resuming normal life, that you can start doing enjoyable activities, then it might mean that you might be capable of considering returning to employment.

I would have an issue if you did reach that point when your life is almost back to normal, but you decided then that although you can travel again, go out in the evenings, visit friends, take walks or go to the gym, or whatever else, but declared that you were definitely incapable of trying any kind of employment activity and were unlikely to do so for a very long time in the feasible future.

merlin68

FBaby wrote: »

If you are referring to some of my posts, than I think you have misinterprated what I tried to convey. My perspective is that sickness benefits ARE designed to support people exactly like you now. You were working, you got hit with a serious condition that means you are severely affected, not just when at work, but also in terms of doing the enjoyable things you used to do before you fell ill. You should be looked after.

If you reach the point that your treatment means that you can start resuming normal life, that you can start doing enjoyable activities, then it might mean that you might be capable of considering returning to employment.

I would have an issue if you did reach that point when your life is almost back to normal, but you decided then that although you can travel again, go out in the evenings, visit friends, take walks or go to the gym, or whatever else, but declared that you were definitely incapable of trying any kind of employment activity and were unlikely to do so for a very long time in the feasible future.

So your saying that because people like me can go on holiday or go out in our wheelchair that we should be capable of work.
My 2 conditions are genetic and incurable, wish i could walk or go to the gym lol. I go to lunch club twice a week and wi once a month and bingo once a week as well. Rest of week am indoors recovering from those excursions.
Dd was born with same condition shell never work even though she does her horse riding and piano lessons.

NYM

I'm sure that FBaby didn't mean that at all. She wrote...

...If you reach the point that your treatment means that you can start resuming normal life, that you can start doing enjoyable activities, then it might mean that you might be capable of considering returning to employment.

I would have an issue if you did reach that point when your life is almost back to normal, but you decided then that although you can travel again, go out in the evenings, visit friends, take walks or go to the gym, or whatever else, but declared that you were definitely incapable of trying any kind of employment activity and were unlikely to do so for a very long time in the feasible future...

I have a very close relative that has Rheumatoid arthritis, advanced Osteoporosis, Pericarditis, Reynauds Disease, but all of her conditions are being treated so effectively that this week-end she was playing rounders with the rest of the family at a picnic. She knows her limitations and would never push too hard, but she, to all intents and purposes, is certainly fit enough to work if she chose to.

I'm sure that FBaby meant people that with effective treatment, can lead a perfectly normal life.

ImACarer

I believe if you are on ESA Support group then you cannot be sanctioned.

rogerblack

billywilly wrote: »

How would you suggest that the DWP could disprove or even prove what are claimed as 'difficulties caused through pain'?

I come back to the point that fraud is currently way under error rates, and comparable with error by officials in awarding benefit incorrectly.

Most people are not intending to commit benefit fraud.
Those that do should be severely punished.

Making policy on the basis of the few, if it negatively impacts the manys ability to get back into work, or to do some limited work may overall be counterproductive.

There is also the legal requirement to not discriminate amongst groups of disabled people under the equalities act.

If the criteria totally ignore pain, or if reported pain is ignored in favour of 'real' symptoms, then it is likely a breach of the equalities act, and not legal.

DaisyMc81

FBaby wrote: »

If you are referring to some of my posts, than I think you have misinterprated what I tried to convey. My perspective is that sickness benefits ARE designed to support people exactly like you now. You were working, you got hit with a serious condition that means you are severely affected, not just when at work, but also in terms of doing the enjoyable things you used to do before you fell ill. You should be looked after.

If you reach the point that your treatment means that you can start resuming normal life, that you can start doing enjoyable activities, then it might mean that you might be capable of considering returning to employment.

I would have an issue if you did reach that point when your life is almost back to normal, but you decided then that although you can travel again, go out in the evenings, visit friends, take walks or go to the gym, or whatever else, but declared that you were definitely incapable of trying any kind of employment activity and were unlikely to do so for a very long time in the feasible future.

I'm not sure if it was yourself who said people fake arthritis?

Please be assured that if and when my condition improves the first thing that I will do is go back to work. My employers are kindly keeping my job open. One of the conditions of the PIP award is that should your condition change you must notify them. I don't think my consultant would lie to the government, so that I could continue to receive it:rotfl:

My personal circumstances are such that I think I'm receiving probably the highest amount of sickness benefits, excluding rent help, but it's definitely not as much money as I was being paid in wages. Admittedly I worked alot of hours to be able to afford nice things, but the life on benefits isn't as good as being employed, nor should it! What I don't understand is why people think that the money you receive from benefits gives you some fantastic life where you are able to buy huge tv's and such?

I don't know, maybe I'm naive but life on benefits is nothing like the sun would have you believe. Being unwell is hard enough to deal with without having people judge you and make ignorant comments about your work ethic. I'm very proud of always having supported myself and my self confidence has taken a huge blow with having to ask for state help.

Thank you for your reply.

merlin68

Well said daisy. Assessment rate esa for a couple is £115 a week, plus my £21.55 dla.
Hardly a life of luxury. Yes i get ctc and cb but they stop next august.
Im hardly able to travel the world on that amount. If any appliances go i am also up the swanny.

DaisyMc81

I have a very close relative that has Rheumatoid arthritis, advanced Osteoporosis, Pericarditis, Reynauds Disease, but all of her conditions are being treated so effectively that this week-end she was playing rounders with the rest of the family at a picnic. She knows her limitations and would never push too hard, but she, to all intents and purposes, is certainly fit enough to work if she chose to.

I'm sure that FBaby meant people that with effective treatment, can lead a perfectly normal life.[/QUOTE]

I'm sorry, I know you weren't replying to me, but I love this! There are some very good treatments available for RA, it's just finding the right one for each person. The NHS rules are such that other treatment options have to be tried before the 'gold standard' treatment can be approved. That's where I am currently. Hopefully once I do get approval I will be able to return to work, and indeed life!

It would be impossible to fake this condition, the results of your blood tests determine if you're in remission or not. This is the evidence used by the DWP to award PIP.