D/G companies pvc composite cladding?

ANGLICANPAT

We've just had a job done by a small local firm who quoted me £600 in for Rosewood finish solid insulated shiplap cladding in the 12ft lengths I needed, to be fitted without joins (in writing) (12ftx4.5ft area under windows) ( Have seen it done joined and it stops it looking like timber)

They fitted Rosewood coloured Eurocell solid shiplap cladding which is only about just over a quarter inch thick.
We are SW facing. Sun came out day after, and the whole thing buckled. I then searched the Eurocell site and it specifies 2.5metre lengths as being the max, to allow for expansion - presumably to avoid whats happened.

Dilemma is, the firm will probably offer to put it right , by wanting to put a join in the middle , I specified in writing 'NO JOINS' because I absolutely hate the extra artificial look joins give.
I got a quote from one of the 'big' companies for doing the same job in 12ft unjoined , but it was using .5+" insulated shiplap costing best part of £1000 which is too expensive.

Please can any fitters verify that this thicker insulated profile the likes of Facia Direct use , is ok to use in 12ft lengths, and secondly , where can it be bought for a DIY job please?

If the fitters want to put right with a join, am I being unreasonable in saying no thanks, Id like a refund instead ? Im not prepared to pay many hundreds more for them to source and use the thick stuff (hence the need for DIY ing it)My other alternative is to get it redone in wood again if joins are a must for any composite pvc.

Furts

I am assuming that you had softwood cladding under the windows before the upvc cladding was fitted. If so, you have drawn up a specification to remove a material which was fit for purpose and replace it with a material that was not fit for purpose. This error in specification is down to you. The contractors have complied with your specification. Hence it will not be easy to pin matters on them.

I am assuming that your specification also detailed ventilation, vapour barriers and breather membranes. If the answer to this is negative then you may have more problems than you are aware of. If so, it would be prudent to remove the upvc and undertake the work to a recognised standard.

Apologies if this is not the answer you were hoping to hear!

ANGLICANPAT

Not at all Furts, Im pleased to hear all and any views . Yes you are correct, we had softwood shiplap before which had shrunk over the years and stopped 'lapping' leaving gaps for the weather to enter.

Not sure how I have 'drawn up a specification' . As Im getting a bit too old to be using ladders ,all I did was ask for thick solid insulating upvc type cladding under the windows , and told them Id like it in one length. Im not technically savvy on what you can and cant do building wise, especially with this product. Surely a tradesman shouldnt just ignore the manufacturers advice on fitting , without warning the client of the problems that could ensue ?

How could I possibly be expected to know that a product is or isnt fit for purpose? Surely its not my job to find out the manufacturer of the product they use , read through reams of bumph and assess whether the fitters are using a suitable product for the job in hand?

I didnt even mention ventilation , vapour barriers , or membranes, as I havent a clue about them or why theyre needed . How many housewives would I wonder !!! I was using a recommended local firm with a good reputation and presumed they would know their job .

Id also had Fascia Direct and Safestyle round, and neither of them mentioned any of that stuff to me , or said I couldnt have 12ft lengths .

I expect trades, to know their stuff . If I knew all the ins and outs of fitting Upvc , Id just have got the right product and got the local DIY man round, and advised him how to do it, at a fraction of the price.

Furts

ANGLICANPAT wrote: »

I needed, to be fitted without joins (in writing) (12ftx4.5ft area under windows) ( Have seen it done joined and it stops it looking like timber)

I specified in writing 'NO JOINS' because I absolutely hate the extra artificial look joins give.

I got a quote from one of the 'big' companies for doing the same job in 12ft unjoined ,


My other alternative is to get it redone in wood again if joins are a must for any composite pvc.

When anyone reads your post it is apparent that you were adamant that there should be no joints. This is against the manufacturers recommendations but the fitters have honoured your requirement. Had you approached companies and said please supply a detailed quote based on good practice and the relevant manufacturers technical guidance you would be in a different position. Then if your cladding had buckled it would be their problem, and not yours.

In simple terms, fixing a large area of dark coloured upvc cladding on a vertical face, facing south west is inviting problem. This is both from the sun and from the prevailing rain. I do not know your wall construction, so I cannot give guidance on vapour barriers, membranes and ventilation. However, all should have received consideration before your new cladding was fixed. It may be that some are not required - only a competent inspection could answer that.

If you decide to revert to softwood cladding be meticulous with your specification, sourcing, and treatment of the timber. If this is done, combined with minimal maintenance, you should easily achieve 25+ years life from the cladding.

Whilst it may not help, you are probably a victim of one of the thousands of cowboy installers who operate in the cladding/new fascia/new soffit/home improvement market. Even the so called reputable companies often have no idea of what they are doing.

Hope this helps

ANGLICANPAT

Hi . Id agree I told them I wanted it done in one piece ,and backed that up in writing , but I still personally feel its their job to advise that they would be going against best practice to do it .

Pretend scenario --- If I had a fancy brick wall built and I said I wanted coloured cement (because I didnt like grey and thought green would look good) and I wrote that down ,which they without any comment then wrote into their quote ---if a week later the said cement started to crumble in stormy weather because the green colourant had been specified by the manufacturer for inside use only because it reacted badly with water ---- would that have been my fault that I didnt know what Id asked for wasnt possible without disastrous consequences?
Thats like having a guard dog, but having to do the barking yourself lol !!If we 're going down that route, we may as well forget tradesmen and all just read the instruction book and have a go ourselves with help of a jobber !

I dispute that its my fault , but I agree with you it does look as if Ive sadly chosen a well recommended company, who has just not been up to the job on this occasion . So hard to get it right. I got personal recommendations, visited the showroom, checked them out at companies house, rang up the professional body they claimed to be part of , rang the underwriters of their guarantee for if they went bust, as well as getting everything in writing , and yet still it seems its now also the clients job to check what they ask for is best practice . Nuff to drive one to drink!

ps. thanks, I do appreciate you taking the time to explain the other considerations to gen up on if considering cladding.

Furts

Sorry Anglicanpat, you have done all the right things but the world does not operate like that any more. We live in an age of tickboxes and accreditation with companies promising all sorts. The reality is that there is a chronic shortage of competent, skilled, honest, trades people. Consequently the companies employ chancers, cowboys and bodgers for there is little else available. When the companies are then challenged about bad workmanship, they too cannot help, for they too do not much idea about what is required.

Unfortunately this scenario is the norm in the "home improvement" market. Hence my comments about cladding, soffits, and fascias. But this reasoning can be extended to double glazing, conservatories, kitchens, bathrooms...the list goes on.

This is not a case of "Grumpy Old Man" thinking. I work in the construction industry and I know how dire matters are. There is good advice and control available to combat this situation, but the vast majority of consumers are not prepared to pay for it,

Kiran

The issue would appear to be did you give them a brief or a specification? If your brief was complete lengths and you have asked them to provide a product that is suitable then yes, you should be covered. If howvever you have specified the product and that you want it fitted outside of the manufacturers recommendations, albeit without knowing the details, then unfortunatley the company will have that on their side.

Sorry for the seemingly negative response

ANGLICANPAT

Hi Kiran. ok , wind back to when the bloke came initially. I pointed to the 12ft lengths of wooden cladding below the bedroom windows and said that it needed replacing, and I thought we would have the solid ,thick pvc style cladding instead as we're getting too old to be going up ladders with Ronseal or whatever .

I said Id like it in one piece as per the existing wood because I thought it looked better. I said Id seen it with joins on another house , and disliked it. He just made notes as he did about the kind of glass I wanted in the doors, the way I wanted the window to open etc.

(Except with the window he advised me to have a lower opening one rather than the top opener Id asked for which would have required me to really stretch to reach. I accepted his advice --- as I would have done if he'd pointed out any potential cladding probs!)

The quote he gave us detailed everything, and when it came to the cladding, it said something like solid cladding to be installed below bedroom windows , and at the end 'cladding in one length, no joins'.

We accepted the quote and the rest is history. ( Also paid the deposit partly by CC by the way as an even further precaution)

They are coming back to see it soon, so will see what they say. In the light of what Furts has said about the ignorance of fitters about membranes , ventilation, and vapour barriers -- I feel even more that if this firm didnt even know that 12ft lengths would buckle in sun, they certainly arent going to know about those things - so Im nervous about what to allow them to do as rectification (other than ripping out and refunding) .

Behind the cladding is in two forms . Two thirds is just across normal brick under a window, the other third is over studding, insulation wool and plywood on the bedroom wall side , as there used to be small double door french window there . Does this sound like a scenario that requires vapour barriers or membranes?

PS When you say advice and control being available - are you saying things are so bad that one needs to employ a qualified surveyor to double check the specifications on quotes home improvement give you in order to get a good job?

Kiran

Anglicanpat that sounds to me like a brief not a specification so I would say you have a a genuine reason for asking for your money back. I am no cladding specialist but every time I've installed as part of a project there has been a vcl installed. That being said, you may be able to find standard details online for the specific product. If not, there should be a technical department that you can speak to.

HTH

Furts

ANGLICANPAT wrote: »

Behind the cladding is in two forms . Two thirds is just across normal brick under a window, the other third is over studding, insulation wool and plywood on the bedroom wall side , as there used to be small double door french window there . Does this sound like a scenario that requires vapour barriers or membranes?

PS When you say advice and control being available - are you saying things are so bad that one needs to employ a qualified surveyor to double check the specifications on quotes home improvement give you in order to get a good job?

Basic principles are to avoid moisture going from your room into the structure. This could condense in the structure causing mould and rot. The moisture could also be prevented from drying out, or passing through the structure, by an impervious layer of upvc cladding.

So one first has a membrane, like polythene behind the plasterboard wall, but yours is plywood- which is not ideal. This stops moisture getting into the structure.

Then on the outside behind the cladding is a vapour control barrier like Tyvek which only allows moisture to pass one way. So the structure can breath and dry out, but the winter dampness cannot get in.

This breathing needs to vent away - you do not want a trapped damp air layer. Hence there needs to be a ventilated gap giving a proper air flow between the barrier and the cladding. One needs to think of this as needing an in route and an exit route.

Finally when doing this work it would be good practice to upgrade the insulation contained between the studs. Not vital, but an ideal opportunity to update, and future proof, for very little cost. The studs should also be treated and checked for rot.

All this is fundamental building practice that has been taught for decades. Almost none of the installers is aware of it for they have not been taught, they have not undertaken apprenticeships, and they are happy to remain ignorant. They could not care less - few have any scruples about fleecing customers in the "home improvement industry."

All this points to a need for people to seek professional guidance and control. However, private home owners rarely do this.

Hope this helps, and apologies for the lecture on building!

ANGLICANPAT

Kiran thanks for your thoughts and advice. I will further read the technical bumph on the Eurocell site - and speak to the firm if still then necessary.
Furts, your explanation and building lesson is really appreciated .Many thanks. I will read up more on it on the technical site , and then speak to the DG firm about it. Im totally put off upvc for cladding now, and just want it taken away and my money back so I can get a joiner to put wood back up!! At least Im pleased with my doors and window (as far as I know anyway lol ! ) Probably a case of the firm being far more experienced with those than cladding, as theres not a lot of it around here.