Renovations and Repayments.

edinburgher

60+ hours a week is normal, coasting isn't allowed and anyone who isn't good or outstanding can receive a formal warning and be fast-tracked out.

Is that an English thing? Because I'm related to a headteacher and they find it nigh on impossible to get rid of their duffers

maman

edinburgher wrote: »

Is that an English thing? Because I'm related to a headteacher and they find it nigh on impossible to get rid of their duffers

I can only speak definitively for England as education is devolved in other parts of the UK so don't have to carry out Gove's (the fast track is one of his legacies) wishes.


Obviously a headteacher would need evidence to prove someone was a 'duffer' such as a series of lesson observations where teaching was satisfactory or worse and evidence that pupils weren't making progress (so even if results were good without progress that would be coasting). As a written warning is disastrous on a CV most, in my experience, choose to jump before seeing it through to potential dismissal (when external advisors would need to be brought in to verify a head's judgements).

AlexLK

hiddenshadow wrote: »

No, because the choice (or necessity) to spend was conscious. You know that your bills/regular life expenses are X, you choose to spend Y on top of that for wants/fun things/etc, leaving you Z to save/invest/go on holiday with/whatever. Then when you get around to actually committing amounts X/Y/Z it's fine because you already knew those amounts/goals going in. And, if something comes up that takes X or Y over the amount you'd planned, you can re-jig the numbers and take some out of Y/Z to cover it.

In other words, you've already made a plan for your money for the month (or week, or year). You can adjust the plan as you go to account for unexpected/forgotten things, emergencies, can't-pass-up opportunities, etc. Once the plan is made, recording the spending is just the execution of the plan, no need for shame/blame/guilt.

I know I've already rambled on about YNAB but the beauty is really in the mindset more than the software: https://www.youneedabudget.com/learn/guide/prioritize Worth a read/watch of the videos. I don't know how much money we were frittering away on silly stuff before 2013, but now I can look at any month since then (when we started using YNAB) and - generally speaking at least - tell you what we spent when/where/why during that month. I may not love all the financial choices we've made in the last 3 years, but I'm aware of them and how/why we made them. And having to actively make the decision (this month: keep money sitting aside in savings accounts rather than mortgage OP to make up for lower-than-usual pay for me last month) makes it harder (for us, anyway) to just spend mindlessly and then regret not making any progress by the end of the month.

Thanks HiddenShadow.

At the moment, I'm gathering my data ready to do something a bit more formal with it over the coming months. I think I'll feel better when I know the amounts I'm "meant" to be spending. At the moment it just seems a list of never ending transactions.

LadyGnome wrote: »

My motivation is to make conscious spending decisions. Having money gives you choices and opportunities. I want my money to work for me to allow me to do what I want. I don't want the money to slip through my fingers on stuff that doesn't mean anything nor make my life comfortable. I don't mind paying for heating as I don't like being cold or tickets for the theatre or sports because I enjoy them but I don't like paying for a lunch in work that isn't really what I want because I couldn't be bothered to make something.

:rotfl: This reminds me of a recent lecture from my father. To be honest, you have a point.

LadyGnome wrote: »

Hiddenshadow amazing cross posting there saying the same thing.
Great minds...:)

I like the thought processes behind YNAB although I follow my own methods and I am also a fan of the Your Money or Your Life book that a few people have mentioned on various diaries. It makes you question your reasons for earning and spending.

Not seen "Your Money or Your Life", will have a look for it.

SingleSue

edinburgher wrote: »

So the moral of the story is work yourself into an early grave? I'm sorry, but that doesn't sound any healthier than coasting.

And is probably one of the reasons I am now having to use a wheelchair and my health is beggered.

Couldn't be told that when I was in my 20s though, I was chasing the money and acting the big I am

AlexLK

maman wrote: »

Obviously you have to pay council tax and I'm sure you get the best possible price for fuel and insurance. For everyday spending you might find the fact that you're accountable to your spreadsheet makes you think twice. I wish it would rub off on MrsK.

Council tax is a necessary evil, seems like a complete waste of money. Insurance is less than £90 for the year, fully comprehensive so I suppose I shouldn't complain, about that really. Yes, always try to get the best price for fuel too.

Definitely think twice by being accountable to the spreadsheet. Resisted spending £70 today because I knew I'd not be happy to see -£70 for a shirt I don't need on my spreadsheet. :rotfl:

Mrs K doesn't see the spreadsheet and won't for a couple of months. Do plan to show it to her. On the plus side, she went for a drink after work with her colleagues and drove home before dinner having only had a glass of wine. Not having to pick her car up from work on a Saturday morning is a win.

A_Frayed_Knot wrote: »

Well done on the low spend day.

Thanks, FrayedKnot. Today has been more expensive but not too horrendous.

edinburgher wrote: »

Well, I'd argue that you don't always have to work very hard, you just need to work smart(ish). Can't say that I've ever worked particularly hard (at a job), I tend to complete everything that's expected to a decent standard and then coast. That said, I'm in a public sectorish environment and 50% of my colleagues (if not more) are the same. My reward? A middling salary and no prospect of promotion. Unfortunately in my role, I've tried the 'work your socks off' thing as well, it didn't reward any more than 'do what you need to to meet expectations'. I'll have a hard time explaining effort to children. That's the funny thing - academically I had reasonable success, in terms of life skills I'm very focused, work just doesn't particularly interest me

Well, I've not received family assistance for day-to-day living expenses since I left home at 17 (16 years and counting), with the exception of my parents advancing me a small £££ sum for a flat deposit when I moved cities that was coming to me from an inheritance anyway. I have, on the other hand, received occasional windfalls, including some money for our wedding and house deposit.

I'm grateful for all we have, but I'm also painfully aware that others have a lot less. This thread on Reddit is sobering (albeit principally focused on the US).

Working very long hours tipped me over the edge and I've not had a "proper job" since but I appreciate some thrive on it. Therefore, I'll tell my son he should only do as much work as he wants to. If he choses not to work, so long as he's doing something he enjoys (and that isn't sitting around watching TV all day), he'll always be provided with an income.

Hadn't realised you're completely self made, Ed. You always seem to be doing so well and putting a lot of money into investments or your house.

Some of the food related poor people's stories made me gag. However, if saying "no" to children wanting sweets and expensive toys makes you poor ...

ETA: Some of the poor people's stories are rather profound but very sad. I know as a parent if my son were in the position of not being able to afford to eat properly, I'd step in. Truth be known I'd step in before then. I've considered my wife and I to have gone through being rather poor (people on the debt free board weren't too impressed by me saying that) but we've always had saleable assets. I don't think others necessarily have that but I cannot comprehend having no cash or assets. Beyond that I certainly cannot comprehend what kind of parent lets their son or daughter become so poor they have no roof over their head, drive an unroadworthy car and can't afford to feed themselves or forgo personal hygiene. It's abhorrent.

AlexLK

hiddenshadow wrote: »

:beer:

I read that one, and All Your Worth by Elizabeth Warren. (Plus a few others like Total Money Makeover, etc.) That was in 2008-9, so by the time I found YNAB in 2013 a lot of the concepts were in place.

I'll have a look at these too. Thanks, Hiddenshadow.

SingleSue wrote: »

What's done is done, it's all history now and although there is the occasional regret, life is what you make it, not how much money there is in the bank.

You asked the question earlier in your thread regarding the house being repossessed. My parents had to stand back and watch whilst it happened to us, there was no money to bail us out so they were helpless. The point is, it may seem the most horrendous thing in life to happen but in reality, there are much much worse things that could happen....receiving the news regarding the two younger ones and their disabiities had a much more devastating impact on our lives.

Regarding help from parents, I think there are a fair few who could call on the bank of mum and dad. I know I have and they have been a godsend over the last 10 years, at times, they kept my car on the road (it was much less hassle for them if my car was working, it meant I could drive them to hospital appointments :rotfl:). The amounts are probably smaller than the scale you have been talking about but the help has still been received. For me though, the help has always been seen as a loan, so every time they have helped, every single penny has been paid back to them over time....even though they do knock of a few quid here and there.

Barring the need for a care home, my parents have said that their children will be well provided for when they have gone, so although I would rather not think of it and would prefer them here, there is an inheritance for us all through their mortgage free property, insurances and savings. Just the same as my children will have a small amount to come from my estate when I go (I kept my life insurance going).

SingleSue wrote: »

I was in the corporate world, my average working day was around 12 to 13 hours plus weekends (albeit less hours) but the rewards were tremendous. The scope for moving up if you put the work in was always there as was the financial reward. One year, I earned more in overtime than my basic salary and that wasn't particularly shoddy either!

I went from the junior in the office to a manager in less than 2 years through sheer hard work and the willingness to learn other areas when things were slower in my department. The idea of coasting or slowing down never crossed my mind, I HAD to be going hell for leather the whole time I was there otherwise I got bored. When I went on maternity leave, they had to take on 5 people to do all the stuff I had been doing....

Sue, I think you have an incredibly good attitude to life. Really don't think I'd come through the other side, to be honest.

SingleSue

To be honest, I didn't think I was going to survive it and at a particularly bad point just over 10 years ago, it was looking like I wouldn't. It was as if I was on a horror merry go round, one that I just couldn't get off.

Thing is, none of us think that we would cope if certain things happen, in reality, you just have to get on and deal with it and although it seems like an age whilst it is happening, looking back, it's just a blip in your life and before long, the good things start to make the bad memories dim into the background.

AlexLK

hiddenshadow wrote: »

As ed said, I don't think it's about working harder, but smarter. When you have to consider these things, you decide to combine all your errands into one day out to save on fuel. You clip coupons and shop sales (and thus wait longer than you might like to buy some things).

I cannot see how you can combine all your errands into one day, if we're talking about buying food. When both my wife and I worked full time, we'd end up eating out about 3 times per week to get a good homecooked meal and live on salad for the rest of the time. My wife would buy food at lunchtime for home most days, though. Many people on here say they buy food for a week but personally, I don't find I want to eat it after about 2 days.

Don't personally bother with coupons but will have a quick look for vouchers. Recently saved £40 by using online codes to book a short stay in a spa hotel.

hiddenshadow wrote: »

I don't think lower income people necessarily work any differently than higher income people. The higher income/family money/financial security buys you opportunity, mostly. You can go to university, and maybe study something that you're really interested in rather than just choosing the most sensible option. You can quit your job knowing that if it takes you a few weeks to find a new one you'll be fine. Because you're not having to make the compromises I mentioned above you have more time/less stress to focus on your home/work life, and presumably are more likely to get a promotion. Because you have a good job you probably have good credit (at least at the start) so can get better rates of interest. And so on...hence the increase of the divide between the wealthy and the middle class (I'm speaking from the US perspective but I'm sure the same applies here).

My point about working hard was had I been brought up poor, I surely would not want to stay poor, therefore would work hard (and smart) to achieve more than previous generations had.

hiddenshadow wrote: »

Like Ed, I haven't received any money from family in years, aside from my dad helping us with wedding costs (which was very nice of him but we also picked/stuck to a budget we could have paid on our own so his money was a bonus). My parents earn 6-figures and (I assume) have quite a bit of savings/investments, but I never think of any possible inheritance. I do know that if SHTF and I was destitute they would help me out in a heartbeat, but I honestly can't see that happening...because I've earned my own money, have my own savings, am paying off the house early so we have equity there, etc. A lot of S would have to HTF before we'd be homeless/penniless and relying on family for money.

I think for me it was about expectations. Growing up it was expected that I'd attend university, get a job, and be independent. My parents have their own lives to lead, and their own priorities with their money - after supporting me for 20+ years through uni, they deserve to be able to pursue other financial objectives besides paying my expenses. From there, once I'm earning my own pay and managing my own expenses, it's a natural progression to "what else do I want to do with my life/money?" I bought a house, moved abroad, got married, etc, without much input/influence from my family (besides advice/emotional support). I save for retirement because I want to be comfortable as an OAP regardless of what else might happen. I don't think about/count on inheritance from family because for all I know they'll go on a spending spree right before they pass away, or decide to donate their estate to charity. I figure my best bet is to take care of myself and count anything else as a bonus.

(Sorry, that was quite a novel!)

When I was in my twenties I didn't think I'd wind up ten years later in the position I have, not just financially but in all kinds of ways.

On another note, my parents want me to have time to pursue my interests. I'm very thankful they want to give future generations a choice, something I wish to pass on to my son.

edinburgher wrote: »

So the moral of the story is work yourself into an early grave? I'm sorry, but that doesn't sound any healthier than coasting.

There are people that work is their life. They thrive on it.

My mother has only very recently fully retired in her mid-seventies after a lifetime of seven day working weeks. She resents retiring, as did my father a few years ago at a similar age. I've had to continually persuade them to try to meet people and find interests that aren't to do with work.

maman wrote: »

That's one of the reasons I think Alex is wise to stay away from training as a teacher and stick to enjoying it on a voluntary basis. 60+ hours a week is normal, coasting isn't allowed and anyone who isn't good or outstanding can receive a formal warning and be fast-tracked out. All for fairly low pay as graduate professions go. That's why the government is being forced to put adverts on TV and in newspapers to try and recruit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vTzzZaaJ9uw

Maman, as you're aware I've spent a lot of time mulling this over and I think you're right. Whilst I enjoy my voluntary (and paid) music teaching, I wasn't planning to ever teach full time in a school. I spent a long time thinking I'd do the PGCE and then work part time in a school. However, from the research I've done there's little room (or time) to devise curricula.

My current plan is to finally get a PhD in Music. It's something I've always wanted to do, I have an interesting topic in mind and it won't cause tension between my wife and I.

AlexLK

edinburgher wrote: »

Is that an English thing? Because I'm related to a headteacher and they find it nigh on impossible to get rid of their duffers

maman wrote: »

I can only speak definitively for England as education is devolved in other parts of the UK so don't have to carry out Gove's (the fast track is one of his legacies) wishes.

Obviously a headteacher would need evidence to prove someone was a 'duffer' such as a series of lesson observations where teaching was satisfactory or worse and evidence that pupils weren't making progress (so even if results were good without progress that would be coasting). As a written warning is disastrous on a CV most, in my experience, choose to jump before seeing it through to potential dismissal (when external advisors would need to be brought in to verify a head's judgements).

My problem with the current Ofsted / observation standards (from what I know which is likely very little) is the fact that they seem to be making "good" into "average". Surely "satisfactory" meets all requirements to a satisfactory or average level? Good therefore is above average. Whilst I do believe people should strive more than average, how can average be not good enough when considering the meaning of the word average or satisfactory in the first instance?

SingleSue wrote: »

And is probably one of the reasons I am now having to use a wheelchair and my health is beggered.

Couldn't be told that when I was in my 20s though, I was chasing the money and acting the big I am

Very sorry to hear this.

I teach a pupil with a disabled mother. She doesn't use a wheelchair but struggles to walk and needs a stick. Does make me thankful for my physical health being good.

AlexLK

SingleSue wrote: »

To be honest, I didn't think I was going to survive it and at a particularly bad point just over 10 years ago, it was looking like I wouldn't. It was as if I was on a horror merry go round, one that I just couldn't get off.

Thing is, none of us think that we would cope if certain things happen, in reality, you just have to get on and deal with it and although it seems like an age whilst it is happening, looking back, it's just a blip in your life and before long, the good things start to make the bad memories dim into the background.

I spent two years in my late twenties convinced I wouldn't see another day and didn't deserve to. I didn't want to live but was also inexplicably terrified. Whilst I'm still not 100%, my mind is in a much better place than it was then but horror merry go round explains it rather well.

Unfortunately, the past all too often takes over my thoughts. The regrets and guilt regularly resurface.