CycleCraft - a discussion...

modsandmockers

Tobster86 wrote: »

We cannot have a society that accepts that children will likely be subject to manslaughter just for using a legal mode of transport!

The UK government and CycleCraft/Bikeability actively promote the idea that vehicular cycling is a suitable activity for any age group including children - a child cyclist is just as likely to be the cause and/or the victim of a fatal as any other road user.

Johnmcl7

modsandmockers wrote: »

No - but they might have something to do with usage levels, and/or national priorities.

No, in most places in the UK it's not that hilly and particularly in built up areas and the weather here isn't much different to Holland thanks to the gulf stream. The difference is the infrastructure and general attitude to cycling.

John

frisbeej

fred246 wrote: »

People that haven't cycled in Holland don't seem to be able to appreciate why it is so much better. I think the key points are
1)You are segregated
2)You have priority. Traffic stops for you. Very strange to get used to. at first.
UK motorists will be furious to read this, but it is better for motorists because there are a lot less vehicles on the road. A cyclist just takes up the minimum amount of road space. Having queues of traffic with empty cars except the driver doesn't make sense.
The UK just doesn't seem to have any direction or clue as to what it is doing. Just look at the latest 20MPH speed limits. What is that about? You can't expect motorists to follow the rules of the road without cameras to enforce them.

You don't have to cycle in Holland, 30 secs on Google Maps quickly turns up cycle lanes in Holland that are nothing like cycle lanes in the UK i.e. they are actually dedicated lanes for cyclists, on both sides of the road, more than 12 feet long and no trees or pedestrians in the middle of them.


But there are still plenty of roads in Holland that don't have cycle lanes.

brat

modsandmockers wrote: »

Another of my insane ideas, which I have posted on here before, is that instead of a 20mph speed limit, it would make sense to pave the area completely and designate a 'shared area'. I may be wrong, but I think that's something they do in Holland.

Shared space is not an insane idea, and it's not yours. They've been around for many years now and are used in several towns and cities in the UK. They're not a panacea, and are not much use if the 'space' is to be retained as a primary vehicular route. They're used quite a bit in German cities too.

brat

modsandmockers wrote: »

Yes - and how long would it be before we had yet another sub-division in the argument between the good guys and the bad guys?

Electric bikes are used a lot on the continent, largely by a demographic who wouldn't dream of riding a bike in this country.

brat

Tobster86 wrote: »

The problem with speed limits and the manner in which they are enforced in the UK is that it just generates resentment. It needs to be consistent, safety-orientated and fair, which it is not; it's all politically motivated.

Someone who drives past a school at 40mph can go on a speed awareness course, yet someone who does 100mph on an empty motorway can get the book thrown in their face. Meanwhile you can tailgate, cut-up and use the wrong lane as much as you like, provided that you're not being watched by the increasingly non-existent traffic police, who will probably just give you a bit of a roadside ticking-off anyway because the legal system hasn't made it easy to prosecute for those things.

I'm not saying that we wouldn't 'tick off' or give advice, but it's just as easy to ticket someone for tailgating or poor lane discipline as it is for speeding these days. But I accept that our thin blue line is becoming ever thinner.

So we have a dangerous combination of "I'm resentful because of this" and "I can get away with this, this and this"; and are then presented with a cyclist to get past.

I actually agree with modsandmockers regarding shared areas. It needs to just be socially unacceptable to tear-!!!! around residential areas; and the pedestrians and people who live their should have right of way. Outside of residential areas, however, there should be a German-style encouragement to take advantage of the technical marvels that make the modern car.

I agree with the above sentiment. A responsible attitude to speed is the hallmark of the safest driver, even when that speed strays over the numerical limit.

Nebulous2

frisbeej wrote: »

You don't have to cycle in Holland, 30 secs on Google Maps quickly turns up cycle lanes in Holland that are nothing like cycle lanes in the UK i.e. they are actually dedicated lanes for cyclists, on both sides of the road, more than 12 feet long and no trees or pedestrians in the middle of them.


But there are still plenty of roads in Holland that don't have cycle lanes.

That was the most startling thing for me. Pedestrians just don't walk on cyclepaths.

I'm familiar with a path round a lake with a line in the middle and a symbol of a bike on one side and a person on the other. There is often conflict, with pedestrians generally ignoring the line.

It has taken a generation of education in the Netherlands to get where they are though.

tight_scotsman

Cycling infrastructure is not ever going to be a priority for a UK government. Unless the tree hugging greens get power. And we all know that ain't going to happen.
It's way down the list on the political agenda. Local councils just paint a line 2 foot from the kerb and call it a cycle lane. That's probably as good as it's going to get outside London.

We need proper training for cyclists if they are forced to use proper roads.Something along the lines of the CBT scheme for motorcyclists. It crazy that you can give up your car then spend a couple of grand on a new bike and all the latest gear. Then of you go onto our busy roads not having a clue how to keep yourself safe.

Take the Boris bikes for example. Stupid idea Joe blogs can rent a bike and not have a clue how to use it. Bungling Boris should have had the infrastructure in place before a single bike was hired out.

This is why I have issues with the so called primary position. A complete novice dictating when it's safe for me to overtake. Never heard such nonsense in my life.
I treat every cyclist as a novice that way I won't take it for granted he knows what he is doing.

Some might think this is the wrong attitude to have towards cyclists but in my case I have passed 5 different driving tests and also hold a driver certificate of professional competence. So I think we can safely agree that I am in a better position to decide wether it's safe to make any kind of manouver around a cyclist.

hugheskevi

I'm not saying that we wouldn't 'tick off' or give advice, but it's just as easy to ticket someone for tailgating or poor lane discipline as it is for speeding these days. But I accept that our thin blue line is becoming ever thinner.

As a London cyclist, I find the police are more often part of the problem than part of the solution.

There is a common policy (based on following dozens of camera cyclists on YouTube over many years) of only pursuing incidents where injury results, meaning drivers can generally do whatever they like, no matter how dangerous, as long as it doesn't result in contact. This is the basis of a failure to adequately police the roads. With only a few exceptions, it will be a surprise if the police even send a letter of advice (not a real consequence) even when shocking driving is recorded on camera.

Many camera cyclists have shown that it is not unusual for the police's knowledge of road legislation and best practice cycling to be incorrect, and it is not even unusual to hear the standard cycling fallacies many drivers believe being erroneously repeated by officers.

Operation Safeway is questionable, with large numbers of police in hi-viz jackets infrequently gathering at junctions, and aiming to meet ticketing targets set by their superiors rather than actually police the road. 50 metres either side of the junction and it is back to normal driving conditions of vehicles running red lights, blocking yellow box junctions and using mobile phones with little fear of police consequence.

After previous bad experiences reporting offences, it would now take an accident for me to involve the police in any driving incidents, as it is only going to be a waste of my time.

tight_scotsman

On the police targeting cyclists in London. If you approach a junction and cannot see numerous police officers in hivis clothing . Then you need to ask yourself should I really be cycling in London.