Conveyancing query: can the freeholder not be the lessor?

Nez*

Yesterday I received the copies of the title registers for a flat I have purchased. I am confused over the why the lessor is not the freeholder. I am talking to my solicitor about this on Monday, but I would like any background information in the meantime.

Let me explain:
- My flat is one of two in a Victorian conversion. Let's call mine Flat A, and the other Flat B.
- The previous owner (Owner P) owned the whole house (although it had been two separate flats for over 30 years).
- Owner P sold on the two flats separately at approximately the same time to me (Owner Q, Flat A) and another (Owner R, Flat .

I have received two copies of the title register:
1. The freehold title for the whole house, which has Owner Q and Owner R listed as proprietors (as expected).
2. The leasehold title, for Flat A, which lists the parties as Owner P and Owner Q, and the proprietor as Owner Q. The lease is 999 years.
(The lease itself lists Owner P as the Landlord, and Owner Q as the tenant.)

I would have thought that Q and R, as the joint freeholders, would be the lessor? This is what I expected to happen. Can anyone shed some light on whether this is normal, or not?

G_M

Nez* wrote: »

Let me explain:
- My flat is one of two in a Victorian conversion. Let's call mine Flat A, and the other Flat B.
- The previous owner (Owner P) owned the whole house (although it had been two separate flats for over 30 years).

- Owner P sold on the two flats separately at approximately the same time to me (Owner Q, Flat A) and another (Owner R, Flat .
So Q owns the lease to flat A
R owns the lease to flat B

I have received two copies of the title register:
1. The freehold title for the whole house, which has Owner Q and Owner R listed as proprietors (as expected).
So you and the other leaseholder, jointly own the freehold

2. The leasehold title, for Flat A, which lists the parties as Owner P and Owner Q,??? I suspect this is NOT the 'leasehold Title (ie Land Registry Title). This is the original lease.

and the proprietor as Owner Q. Yes, you currently own the lease

The lease is 999 years.
(The lease itself lists Owner P as the Landlord, and Owner Q as the tenant.)Yes. P created the lease and sold it to you - you became the leaseholder (tenant).


I would have thought that Q and R, as the joint freeholders, would be the lessor?
The original lease was created by P.
The lease for flat A was sold to you, and at same time the freehold was sold to you & flat B (Q & R).

This is what I expected to happen. Can anyone shed some light on whether this is normal, or not?

There are various legal documents:

* the original lease: granted by P to Q (this will never change for 999 years)
* the leasehold Title : currently owned by Q (but you could sell it to Z!)
* the freehold Title : currently owned by Q & R ( but could be sold)

loubel

The Lease states the original parties and doesn't get updated with a change of ownership. The freehold and leasehold title registers will tell you who the current parties to the Lease are.

Nez*

G_M wrote: »

2. The leasehold title, for Flat A, which lists the parties as Owner P and Owner Q,??? I suspect this is NOT the 'leasehold Title (ie Land Registry Title). This is the original lease.

It is in fact the leasehold title, which is why I'm confused. Here's what it says:

"A. Property register....
....
2. Short particulars of the lease(s) (or under-lease(s) under which the land is held):
....
Parties: (1) Owner P
(2) Owner Q

...
...

B. Proprietorship Register
....
Title absolute
1. PROPRIETOR: Owner Q
..."

The leasehold title was issued on 19 Feb, and the freehold on 23 Feb.

Nez*

loubel wrote: »

The Lease states the original parties and doesn't get updated with a change of ownership. The freehold and leasehold title registers will tell you who the current parties to the Lease are.

So, the fact the the lease lists the old owners of the property (Owner P) as the landlord/lessor is now irrelevant as the leasehold title register part B over-rides the names on the lease?

G_M

Nez* wrote: »

It is in fact the leasehold title, which is why I'm confused. Here's what it says:

"A. Property register....
....
2. Short particulars of the lease(s) (or under-lease(s) under which the land is held):
....
Parties: (1) Owner P
(2) Owner Q
as I said: this relates to the original lease which was created
...
...

B. Proprietorship Register
....
Title absolute
1. PROPRIETOR: Owner Q
..."
This is the current owner of the lease.
The leasehold title was issued on 19 Feb, and the freehold on 23 Feb.

So, the fact the the lease lists the old owners of the property (Owner P) as the landlord/lessor is now irrelevant as the leasehold title register part B over-rides the names on the lease?

The original lease will never change. It will exist for 999 years. The names of the two people will not (cannot!) change) Those are the two people who signed it when it was created.

You may sell it on. It may be sold another 32 times, and the 33 owners will be listed as leaseholders on the leasehold Title for the duration of time each owns it.

But the lease itself will still record the the fact that it was created in whatever year, by P & Q.

Land_Registry

I think others have explained this already but the register and lease should be read in conjunction to understand the current ownership and the lease details

The purpose of the A Property Register entry re the 'short particulars of the lease' is simply to enable you to know that you are looking at the correct lease so it will refer to the date, terms and original parties

So if you want to know who owns the lease and it's leasehold title then look at the B Proprietorship Register of the leasehold register
If you want to who owns the freehold title then look at the B Proprietorship Register of the freehold register

Nez*

Land_Registry_representative wrote: »

The purpose of the A Property Register entry re the 'short particulars of the lease' is simply to enable you to know that you are looking at the correct lease so it will refer to the date, terms and original parties

So if you want to know who owns the lease and it's leasehold title then look at the B Proprietorship Register of the leasehold register

So the owner of the lease in B proprietorship of the leasehold register now becomes the lessor, and the previous person names as the lessor in the lease (owner P), now has nothing to do with all this? This would now make sense.

Thanks G_M and the land registry representative for your replies, this has helped my understanding (I think!) of property law.

G_M

Nez* wrote: »

So the owner of the lease in B proprietorship of the leasehold register now becomes the lessor,
correct. And this name changes every time the lease (flat) is sold
and the previous person names as the lessor in the lease (owner P), now has nothing to do with all this?
they remain the original person to whom the lease was granted, and will therefore remain named on the original lease. The lease is not re-issued each time there is a sale. It (the original lease) is sold just as it is, so the wording, including th names, remains unchangd.

This would now make sense.

Thanks G_M and the land registry representative for your replies, this has helped my understanding (I think!) of property law.

:T :beer:

Grant_Urismo

What happens when the lease expires in 999 years? Can the leaseholder then throw the freeholder out?

Hoploz

I thought it might be because you cannot lease to yourself?