Parking ticket for "leaving site"...

Half_way

NoddyVanMan wrote: »

Thanks. The manager's response was: "not my problem, the signs are there"



I shall go back and re-read, but I definitely didn't see a thousand posts mentioning exactly my circumstances. Maybe I'm blind. I'll look again.

If this car park is for B&M only, and B&M have hired the PPC to infest their land, then its everything to do with B&M

Umkomaas

Ralph-y wrote: »

Was it a chain store?

if so then write to the head office / CEO and your MP

Ralph:cool:

And after today's publicity and the looming election, I'd be very surprised if your MP was anything other than 'very interested'. They like to jump on any front horse approaching the finish line!

bod1467

Ralph-y wrote: »

Was it a chain store?

if so then write to the head office / CEO and your MP

Ralph:cool:

Do you send them a chain letter?

NoddyVanMan

wiogs wrote: »

If the manager wishes people to keep shopping in his business then it is very much his problem.

I agree. It seems he doesn't.

bazster wrote: »

I suggested you read the Newbies thread (ONE thread), but I wouldn't be surprised if there are a thousand posts on here re UKPC "leaving the site" tickets, it comes up pretty regularly.

I've been back and done a search, found some useful stuff. Sorry, I'm sure a constant stream of people asking the same questions must become tiresome.

Ralph-y wrote: »

Was it a chain store?

if so then write to the head office / CEO and your MP

Ralph:cool:

No, not a chain store, not the one I shopped in anyway.

There's a picture of the sign at the following address, you'll have to substitute hxxp for http because I'm new here.

hxxp://s725.photobucket.com/user/NoddyVanMan/media/Stuff/IMG_2270_zps972936d6.jpg.html

Redx wrote: »

it also comes up very regularly with JAS parking and B&M stores, plus many others , so I would not be surprised if there were hundreds of "leaving site" posts and threads, never mind the fact its largely irrelevant what the contravention was because you will be fighting this on exactly the same legal grounds as the "thousands" of other threads that are about UKPC (and other BPA registered parking companies), private car parking and popla appeals

you most definitely wont win any UKPC or popla appeal based on your circumstances today , ie:- leaving the site

the win will come through the main appeal points listed in nearly every BPA and popla thread on here

so as somebody mentioned above, what happened on the day is largely irrelevant and has no bearing on your appeals , we dont really care what the problem was , overstay , leaving site , incorrect VRN on paid for ticket , or wearing blue coats on a "green coat" day

try to separate the wood from the trees, it will be easier that way, and its an INVOICE , not a "fine"

post #4 told you EXACTLY what to do

I also suggest you watch the C4 Despatches programme from a few days ago (on catchup), this will explain a lot of this sc@m to you

Ah, that'll be the issue, I was wearing my green coat today! :rotfl:

Seriously, thanks, I suspected that I was pretty much going to get nowhere arguing against the "leaving the site" bit.

Umkomaas wrote: »

Your circumstances are largely irrelevant, just follow the procedures outlined in the NEWBIES sticky. First thing is to wait for the NtK - you've got up to 2 months to wait and read up further on this.

Here's something to start looking at which is very pertinent to your case.

Thanks, that link makes interesting reading, although I suspect the wording of the signs at the carpark today is to try to counter that result.

So. To summarise:

It's no longer best to ignore the issue.

I shouldn't appeal the windscreen ticket, but instead wait for a letter in the post.

I then appeal on the grounds that the fee requested in their "invoice" (not fine) is disproportionate to the "offence", that the signage is inadequate (after all I did genuinely miss it), I was obviously witnessed leaving the site but not warned of the consequences, and that the material losses to the business were nil as I did infact visit one of them and spend money.

Is that about right?

Thanks again for your input.

waamo

NoddyVanMan wrote: »

I agree. It seems he doesn't.



I've been back and done a search, found some useful stuff. Sorry, I'm sure a constant stream of people asking the same questions must become tiresome.



No, not a chain store, not the one I shopped in anyway.

There's a picture of the sign at the following address, you'll have to substitute hxxp for http because I'm new here.

hxxp://i623.photobucket.com/albums/tt313/glenanderson/IMG_2270_zpsa8bfwjfg.jpg



Ah, that'll be the issue, I was wearing my green coat today! :rotfl:

Seriously, thanks, I suspected that I was pretty much going to get nowhere arguing against the "leaving the site" bit.



Thanks, that link makes interesting reading, although I suspect the wording of the signs at the carpark today is to try to counter that result.

So. To summarise:

It's no longer best to ignore the issue.

I shouldn't appeal the windscreen ticket, but instead wait for a letter in the post.

I then appeal on the grounds that the fee requested in their "invoice" (not fine) is disproportionate to the "offence", that the signage is inadequate (after all I did genuinely miss it), I was obviously witnessed leaving the site but not warned of the consequences, and that the material losses to the business were nil as I did infact visit one of them and spend money.

Is that about right?

Thanks again for your input.

If you know what GPEOL is you will be fine. They have a duty to mitigate losses so if they saw you leaving they should have attempted to call you back to warn you about any charge.

Redx

NoddyVanMan wrote: »

I then appeal on the grounds that the fee requested in their "invoice" (not fine) is disproportionate to the "offence", that the signage is inadequate (after all I did genuinely miss it), I was obviously witnessed leaving the site but not warned of the consequences, and that the material losses to the business were nil as I did infact visit one of them and spend money.

Is that about right?

Thanks again for your input.

yes, apart from you missed out the fact of having a valid contract with the landowner too, so NO CONTRACT to pursue charges needs adding to your list

when the NTK arrives, you are checking for errors including arriving at the wrong time, plus appealing as KEEPER, not driver (which you would be if you appealed right now - the driver responding to a windscreen ticket)

glad you are finally "getting it"

NoddyVanMan

Redx wrote: »

yes, apart from you missed out the fact of having a valid contract with the landowner too, so NO CONTRACT to pursue charges needs adding to your list

when the NTK arrives, you are checking for errors including arriving at the wrong time, plus appealing as KEEPER, not driver (which you would be if you appealed right now - the driver responding to a windscreen ticket)

glad you are finally "getting it"

Cheers. I shall add the lack of valid contract to the list.

Part of me wants to get the ball rolling straight away by responding to the ticket, but I fully understand the reasoning behind waiting for the NTK and shall do so. When it arrives I shall review it for inaccuracies and respond as advised. I'll post up a draft here for approval before I send it.

I "get" most things eventually. :rotfl:

Redx

NoddyVanMan wrote: »

Part of me wants to get the ball rolling straight away by responding to the ticket, but I fully understand the reasoning behind waiting for the NTK and shall do so. When it arrives I shall review it for inaccuracies and respond as advised. I'll post up a draft here for approval before I send it.

that is the downfall of many an appeal, people so impatient to get the gun out of their holster that they shoot themselves in the foot

slowly slowly , catchee monkee

use the time wisely to know whats coming and gear up for it, no need to rush at this stage and no need to give the game away either

NoddyVanMan

Hello again.

The NTK arrived yesterday. Unfortunately both well within the time limit and without any obvious errors.

So. To appeal.

From the FAQs page it seems that an online appeal is OK? Am I right in that, or would a written and posted version be better?

I have taken the template from the Newbie's page and tweaked it to suit my circumstances. Hopefully it will meet with your approval:

Mrs. NoddyVanMan,
My house,
Sunny Kent.

29th March 2015

Dear Sirs

Re: PCN No. 1xxxxxxxxxxxx
Registration ABC 123

I challenge this 'PCN' as keeper of the car, on these main grounds:

a). The sum does not represent a genuine pre-estimate of loss, nor is it a core price term. It is a disguised penalty and not commercially justified. The parking is free for customers of the adjoining businesses, I have a receipt from Bxxxxx Txxxx for purchases made well within the two hour free time period and the vehicle was not at the location in excess of the free period allowed so there was no “loss” for you to suffer beyond that you have generated yourselves and for which I am not liable.

b). As keeper I believe that the signs were not seen, the wording is ambiguous, any that laid out the requirement for remaining on site were much less conspicuous than those proclaiming “Two Hours Free Parking” and the predominant purpose of your business model is intended to be a deterrent.

c). There is no evidence that you have any proprietary interest in the land.

d). Your 'Notice' fails to comply with the POFA 2012 and breaches various consumer contract/unfair terms Regulations.

e). There was no consideration nor acceptance flowing from both parties and any contract with myself, or the driver, is denied.

f). If the driver was spotted leaving the site, no attempt was made to warn them of the consequences of doing so, thus your duty to mitigate was overlooked in your zeal to impose a ticket.

Your clients should be thoroughly ashamed of the shoddy way you treat consumers visiting their premises. The landowner will be made fully aware of this matter and your response, which I will forward to their CEO when I complain in writing and via social media, as appropriate. Parking firms like yours fail to demonstrate even a basic understanding of customer service. The reputation of your business model appears to be more akin to a protection racket than 'parking management'. Your ATA may offer sound-bites about driving up standards or fight for motorists' rights but in reality they are not a regulator; they merely exist to represent the interests of paying members, in order to gain access to DVLA data. The public have no faith in the private parking industry and, as far as I have seen, your firm has not shown itself to be any different than the ex-clampers with whom you share a membership.

The purpose of this communication is:

1. Formal challenge
There will be no admissions as to who was driving and no assumptions can be drawn. As such, you must either rely on the POFA 2012 or cancel the charge. I suggest you uphold this challenge now or alternatively, send a rejection letter - subject to accepting my claim for costs as clearly stated below, since you have no case.

2. ''Drop hands'' offer
The extravagant 'parking charge' is baseless but I realise that you may have incurred nominal postage costs. Equally, I have incurred costs to date, for researching the law and responding to your junk mail dressed up to impersonate a parking ticket. It is clear that my costs and yours, at this point, do not exceed £15. Therefore, this is a formal “drop hands” offer. I remind you of the duty to mitigate any loss, so withdraw the spurious charge within 35 days without further expense and I will not pursue you for my costs. If you persist then I will charge in full for my time at £18 per hour plus my out-of-pocket expenses and damages for harassment.

3. Notice of cancellation of contract
I hereby give notice of withdrawal from this alleged 'contract' which was never properly offered by you and certainly was not expressly agreed. This 'contract' is hereby cancelled and any obligations now end. If you offer - and if I decide to use - POPLA, then the contract ends immediately on the date of their decision (whatever the outcome) so my notice of cancellation still applies. The Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation & Additional Payments) Regulations apply now to every consumer contract, save for a few exemptions, which parking contracts are not. It is the will of Parliament following the EU Consumer Rights Directive, that express consent is obtained for consumer contracts now - not implied consent - and that information is provided in a durable medium in advance.

You have failed to meet these requirements. The foisting of unexpected contracts like this on consumers, by stealth, is a thing of the past.

By replying to the challenge you are acknowledging receipt and acceptance of points 2 and 3 above. If you decide to persist with this unwarranted threat, I will be put to unnecessary expense and hours of time in appealing or defending this matter. As such, you will be liable for my costs and a pre-estimate of my loss - and in contrast with yours, mine is genuine - is that this sum will be likely to exceed £100.

I have kept proof of submission of this challenge. I look forward to your considered reply within 35 days.

Yours faithfully,

Mrs. NoddyVanMan.

If that looks right to you fine people, I will go about making an online appeal. Please make any comments you think fit.

Many thanks,

Umkomaas

NoddyVanMan wrote: »

Hello again.

The NTK arrived yesterday. Unfortunately both well within the time limit and without any obvious errors.

So. To appeal.

From the FAQs page it seems that an online appeal is OK? Am I right in that, or would a written and posted version be better?

I have taken the template from the Newbie's page and tweaked it to suit my circumstances. Hopefully it will meet with your approval:



If that looks right to you fine people, I will go about making an online appeal. Please make any comments you think fit.

Many thanks,

Tweaking is not recommended as it will be highly unlikely to alter the outcome of the appeal. However there is a danger that it can undermine the keeper's position by referring or hinting as to who the driver might be.

This might be one such example of a 'hint'.

I have a receipt from Bxxxxx Txxxx for purchases made