Booked for using mobile while stationery

Joe_Horner

Spicy_McHaggis wrote: »

R v Macdonnagh.

Engine doesn't need to be running yet for a mobile phone you state it must be even though there is no stated case to back up your claim.

No, I didn't say that at all.

I said "if it is running then you are driving".

Logically and syntactically that does not preclude the .possibility that you might also be driving without it running, so your post is a straw-man.

matttye

http://swarb.co.uk/regina-v-macdonagh-ca-1974/

"Lord Widgery CJ said: ‘The essence of driving is the use of the driver’s controls in order to direct the movement, however that movement is produced.’ and
‘There are an infinite number of ways in which a person may control the movement of a motor vehicle, apart from the orthodox one of sitting in the driving seat and using the engine for propulsion. He may be coasting down a hill with the gears in neutral and the engine switched off; he may be steering a vehicle which is being towed by another. As has already been pointed out, he may be sitting in the driving seat while others push, or half sitting in the driving seat but keeping one foot on the road in order to induce the car to move. Finally, as in the present case, he may be standing in the road and himself pushing the car with or without using the steering wheel to direct it. Although the word ‘drive’ must be given a wide meaning, the courts must be alert to see that the net is not thrown so widely that it includes activities which cannot be said to be driving a motor vehicle in any ordinary use of that word in the English language.’"

Definitely flies in the face of the engine having to be on.

Although the case says nothing about being stationary and still 'driving.'

dunroving

Spicy_McHaggis wrote: »

If he's in charge of the steering, braking and propulsion then legally he's driving.

That's why the law is an a-s-s. I'd say handbrake on, in neutral, in a parking space is not driving. Whether or not that is the letter of the law, I'd imagine it's the spirit of the law.

Joe_Horner

dunroving wrote: »

That's why the law is an a-s-s. I'd say handbrake on, in neutral, in a parking space is not driving. Whether or not that is the letter of the law, I'd imagine it's the spirit of the law.

The law can be an arrse, but they have to draw a line somewhere and "engine off" is a reasonably easy one to spot from outside the car. You can't see if someone has the handbrake on, or their auto gearbox in drive, or in gear with foot on clutch but you can (usually) see or hear if the engine's running. That makes it a reasonably sensible place to draw the line.

It's not like it's much of an inconvenience to turn it off once you're stopped after all!

Spicy_McHaggis

Joe_Horner wrote: »

The law can be an arrse, but they have to draw a line somewhere and "engine off" is a reasonably easy one to spot from outside the car. You can't see if someone has the handbrake on, or their auto gearbox in drive, or in gear with foot on clutch but you can (usually) see or hear if the engine's running. That makes it a reasonably sensible place to draw the line.

It's not like it's much of an inconvenience to turn it off once you're stopped after all!

You keep talking about drawing the line with the engine off, but you can still be driving with the engine off. So exactly what is your point?
You mentioned you case notes so you obviously have a theory you won't share,

Joe_Horner

Spicy_McHaggis wrote: »

You keep talking about drawing the line with the engine off, but you can still be driving with the engine off. So exactly what is your point?
You mentioned you case notes so you obviously have a theory you won't share,

Ahh, your strawman again.

Do you really not understand that saying "if your engine is on you're driving" is not the same as saying "if your engine is off you're not driving"?

In logical terms those two statements are not equivalent propositions.

You could also be ticketed for (for example) rolling down a hill, engine off, wile using your mobile. But that is an entirely separate test of "driving":

Put simply, you are driving if:

(a) You're in the driving seat of a vehicle with a running engine

and / or:

(b) You're engaged in any other activity which would amount to driving even with the engine off.

Spicy_McHaggis

Joe_Horner wrote: »

Ahh, your strawman again.

Do you really not understand that saying "if your engine is on you're driving" is not the same as saying "if your engine is off you're not driving"?

In logical terms those two statements are not equivalent propositions.

You could also be ticketed for (for example) rolling down a hill, engine off, wile using your mobile. But that is an entirely separate test of "driving":

Put simply, you are driving if:

(a) You're in the driving seat of a vehicle with a running engine

and / or:

(b) You're engaged in any other activity which would amount to driving even with the engine off.

Says who, you?

Joe_Horner

No, says plenty of case law regarding other driving offences which, until such times as someone successfully appeals a "using a mobile" charge, apply equally to that offence.

That's why, if you ask just about any motoring solicitor they'll tell you the same thing. The ones that don't are hoping your pockets are deep enough to take the appeal and get their name associated wit a new precedent

Spicy_McHaggis

Joe_Horner wrote: »

No, says plenty of case law regarding other driving offences which, until such times as someone successfully appeals a "using a mobile" charge, apply equally to that offence.

That's why, if you ask just about any motoring solicitor they'll tell you the same thing. The ones that don't are hoping your pockets are deep enough to take the appeal and get their name associated wit a new precedent

Care to name any?

Joe_Horner

!!!!!!! You're the one with the problem over how things stand, try looking it up yourself - here's a useful link for you:

https://www.google.co.uk

Alternatively, if you really do need someone else to do the legwork, take my earlier advice - get yourself ticketed, appeal it, and the prosecutor will be happy to provide all the references you could ever want while getting you convicted!!!