ATM theft on Credit Card

nsalam

PeacefulWaters wrote: »

And the onus is on the bank to prove it.

(Interestingly, chip and pin card cloning is quite rare, although not impossible. If I was to speculate wildly I'd guess the ATMs used were all within a 20 mile radius of the OP's home or workplace and if I was on the bank's fraud team I'd be very suspicious)

Yes, the money was withdrawn within a 2 miles radius

nsalam

ChumpusRex wrote: »

Not of chip cloning. However, magstripe cloning is well known, and certainly used to work with chip cards (because they retain the magstripe as a backup).

PC June Badger had a chip card, noticed "phantom ATM withdrawrals", and made a fraud claim with the bank. She was promptly arrested for fraud.

At her trial, the bank argued that chips were uncloneable. Her defence team showed that the bank IT systems of the time, did not distinguish between a magstripe read and a chip read, and that a magstripe only clone could be accepted.


Many thanks for that, very interesting. I'm going to pass this information on to the Ombudsman because I'm really struggling to convince them right now.


The technology isn't the same. The chips are significantly more advanced, and use much stronger encryption. In particular, modern chips now tend to use "dynamic data authentication" which is a much stronger technique for prevention of cloning.

ATMs have magstripe and chip readers. The magstripe is used for compatibility with foreign, non-chip cards. Older ATMs would fall-back to the magstripe if a chip was unreadable, allowing a magstripe only clone to be used. These days fallback transactions tend to be flagged as suspicious, or blocked unless there is a good reason (e.g. the ATM doesn't have a chip reader because of its age)

This is my point. If CCTV shows someone that isn't the OP, then while it doesn't prove the transaction wasn't authorised, it does provide the OP and the police with someone to chase for the theft.

The digital signatures are the heart of chip & PIN. The chip will send a signature to the bank as part of the transaction, which the bank keeps. If the signature is correct, then the genuine chip was present at the time of the transaction, and cloning is virtually inconceivable. In the Badger case, when the bank checked their logs, they found blanks where the signatures should have been, even though the transactions had been recorded as "chip & PIN" and the case against her collapsed.[/QUOTE]

grumbler

nsalam wrote: »

Yes, the money was withdrawn within a 2 miles radius

Just shows that most likely it was some person close to you and using your card, not a 'cloned' one, - as the bank said.

nsalam

Thanks to the replies here everyone. I shall muster what I can and present it to the Ombudsman. My suspicion falls on the Bank - someone in the Halifax has undertaken this theft. There was CCTV nearby but the Police didn't act quickly enough to secure it and the Restaurant owner had wiped the film! All against me I'm afraid.

Candyapple

nsalam wrote: »

Thanks to the replies here everyone. I shall muster what I can and present it to the Ombudsman. My suspicion falls on the Bank - someone in the Halifax has undertaken this theft. There was CCTV nearby but the Police didn't act quickly enough to secure it and the Restaurant owner had wiped the film! All against me I'm afraid.

If the daily cash withdrawal limit is £300 and they took £4.5k, surely there would be at least 10+ occasions/days of footage to be obtained?

nsalam

Yes, happened over a consecutive 8 day period with 25 transactions, peaking at 4 a day on one day. I checked my statement on day 9 or 10 from what I remember.

nsalam

The police did not act until after 40 days and the backup cycle was 14 days

grumbler

The police simply fobbed you off. Hardly a surprise.
IF you reported ASAP they could have got hold of the CCTV records if they have not fobbed you off.
I would complain.

nsalam

Who's job is it identify that CCTV might be available? Mine or the Police? Not considering public CCTV, if the CCTV is private and is not (easily) visibile to passers by, shouldn't the Police make their own enquiries as they can to secure private CCTV footage?

Candyapple

nsalam wrote: »

Yes, happened over a consecutive 8 day period with 25 transactions, peaking at 4 a day on one day. I checked my statement on day 9 or 10 from what I remember.

How can you make 4 withdrawals of £300 in one day (£1,200) if the daily cash withdrawal limit is £300 - surely this would not be possible?

I would have thought £300 per day over 15 days = £4.5k.

Let us know how this ends OP, good luck.