Salmond and Sturgeon Want the English Fish for More Fat Subsidies

kabayiri

I think that those of a left persuasion are going to be disappointed with the next parliament, regardless of who gets into power. This obviously includes the SNP sentiment expressed here.

The whole country will have to make 10s of billions in cuts every year purely to reach a point where the deficit is gone. At this point the debt position will be at least £1,700 BILLION. It should be a sobering amount for anyone.

Expect a wider range of cuts coupled with a wider range of taxation to deal with this.

This is NOT an anti-Westminster thing. Nor is it anti Scottish or SNP.

It's reality biting hard.

Generali

Shakethedisease wrote: »

I'm not really sure what you think can be done ? The SNP aren't going anywhere, and are likely to be returned to Westminster in greater numbers than ever before. These are just facts ( based on current predictions, it may change). Denying basic UK democracy for any person in the UK, to have a voice through their chosen MP, from whichever party isn't a palatable thought for anyone ( or at least it shouldn't be ).

Just like 1.6 million Yes voters had to get over the No result and deal with it. So too will Westminster have to deal with the fact that Scotland doesn't vote Labour anymore.

It's hardly Scotland's fault that the two main parties can't muster a majority between them anymore either. Because if either of them could, there wouldn't be any such hysteria about the SNP at the moment. But telling folks just not to vote SNP, that they're stupid to do so ( see Hamish's IQ reference ) or to put their own beliefs aside in order that Scottish Labour MP's and the status quo are returned to 'normal' isn't really democracy either.

If there are riots on the streets on the basis of 30 or 40 SNP MP's being returned in May. Or Labour/Tories unite in order to keep them out. Then I sincerely doubt that the union is very strong to start with anyway.

Even if the SNP get 50% of the vote and almost all the seats in Scotland they will have ~2% of the UK-wide vote and ~10% of the seats.

Leanne1812

kabayiri wrote: »

I think that those of a left persuasion are going to be disappointed with the next parliament, regardless of who gets into power. This obviously includes the SNP sentiment expressed here.

The whole country will have to make 10s of billions in cuts every year purely to reach a point where the deficit is gone. At this point the debt position will be at least £1,700 BILLION. It should be a sobering amount for anyone.

Expect a wider range of cuts coupled with a wider range of taxation to deal with this.

This is NOT an anti-Westminster thing. Nor is it anti Scottish or SNP.

It's reality biting hard.

Whilst I don't like what you are saying regarding austerity & cuts I accept it is inevitable to a varying degree no matter who is in power.

What I still find difficult to swallow is how this monumental crisis came to unfold and yet no one could predict it nor does anyone seem to be accountable.

Any thoughts?

kabayiri

Generali wrote: »

Even if the SNP get 50% of the vote and almost all the seats in Scotland they will have ~2% of the UK-wide vote and ~10% of the seats.

Scotland is obviously an important part of the union, but it is still less than 10% of the population.

The best way for Scotland to show the rest of the UK the way forward is by adopting leading-edge business practice to achieve higher returns per capita.

If this happened I am sure we would all sit up and take note.

I might disagree with HS2 as the best way of spending our hard-earned capital, but I appreciate the focus on developing our infrastructure.

If the SNP or any Scottish representation came up with a much better way of spending this capital to deliver real economic growth I would back it quite happily. This is the way they can develop real influence without creating an 'us and them' feeling.

kabayiri

Leanne1812 wrote: »

Whilst I don't like what you are saying regarding austerity & cuts I accept it is inevitable to a varying degree no matter who is in power.

What I still find difficult to swallow is how this monumental crisis came to unfold and yet no one could predict it nor does anyone seem to be accountable.

Any thoughts?

It's been unfolding for decades. The liberation of the money markets in the 80s changed our attitude towards debt completely.

You cannot point to one single event or guilty party. 'Big bad' corporations may seem an obvious culprit, but they simply operate in an international tax environment. No single state can control their behaviour. Arguably Labour overspent in the good years, but I am sure they started out with the best of intentions. The banking crisis unfolded so quickly it was a case of fire fighting as best we could.

We have had large debts before, after WW2 being a notable example. We adopted a prolonged period of austerity and we got through it. We can do so again.

Leanne1812

kabayiri wrote: »

It's been unfolding for decades. The liberation of the money markets in the 80s changed our attitude towards debt completely.

You cannot point to one single event or guilty party. 'Big bad' corporations may seem an obvious culprit, but they simply operate in an international tax environment. No single state can control their behaviour. Arguably Labour overspent in the good years, but I am sure they started out with the best of intentions. The banking crisis unfolded so quickly it was a case of fire fighting as best we could.

We have had large debts before, after WW2 being a notable example. We adopted a prolonged period of austerity and we got through it. We can do so again.

I suppose my feelings are that a situation completely out of the control of the ordinary british citizen, a crisis that came about through no wrongdoing of the average person has meant we will all suffer indefinitely. We are innocent in this yet we are accountable for repaying the deficit. I struggle to comprehend the amount of deficit we have and how to reduce it without extreme hardship and it fills me with dread.

HAMISH_MCTAVISH

Leanne1812 wrote: »

I suppose my feelings are that a situation completely out of the control of the ordinary british citizen, a crisis that came about through no wrongdoing of the average person has meant we will all suffer indefinitely. We are innocent in this yet we are accountable for repaying the deficit.

Innocent?

I can see why it looks that way to you, but I'm not sure it's entirely accurate.

As a nation we've been living beyond our means for the last 20 years or so in terms of the size and spending of the State apparatus, with far too large a public sector, welfare and benefits bill to be sustainable, and a global financial crisis exposed that fact.

The GFC did not cause the mess we're in now, it just exposed two decades or more of financial mismanagement in the government finances.

I struggle to comprehend the amount of deficit we have and how to reduce it without extreme hardship and it fills me with dread.

The annual deficit, which is what we spend more than what the government takes in, or the amount the national debt is increasing each year, is around 90 Billion pounds at the moment.

The official national debt (so excluding pension liabilities and off the books PFI funding, etc) is around 1.5 Trillion pounds, and increasing every year by the amount of the annual deficit.

That's roughly £50,000 for every full time employee in Britain.

All of the cuts so far in this parliament have only reduced the annual deficit by a third..... Now think of how much more is required just to reduce the deficit down to a point where we're not increasing the debt...... Then think of how we start to pay down that £50K owed by each of the 30 million employees in Britain.....

And if that makes your head spin, then have a think about this.

The full liability for all the national debt, including 'off the books' PFI, unfunded state pensions, etc, is almost 5 Trillion pounds.

That is £80,000 for every man, woman, child and pensioner in the UK.

A family of four would owe £320,000 if we were to try and pay it off on a per capita basis.

Britain can't afford another left leaning government for quite some time....

Shakethedisease

Generali wrote: »

Even if the SNP get 50% of the vote and almost all the seats in Scotland they will have ~2% of the UK-wide vote and ~10% of the seats.

Balance of power ? Not mean anything to you then ?

Why do you think David Cameron, Lords, MP's and various newspaper columnists are calling for Labour to rule out a deal and/or Labour/Tories to unite to keep the SNP out ?

But let us consider what would happen if a scenario like the Ashcroft result emerges with the Scottish Nationalists, led in the House of Commons by Alex Salmond, holding the balance of power.
The SNP have already said they would never support a Conservative government, and so the prospect would be a Labour minority government, sustained in power by the SNP voting on critical issues such as the Queen’s Speech, motions of confidence and the Budget. This may be looked upon as a triumph by default for Labour, but would in fact be a nightmare for them...


...What is at risk is the continuing unity of the UK. In order to preserve that unity, another way should be found. This could be a joint government of the Labour and Conservative Parties – quite unthinkable at the moment and, at this time, likely to be rejected by both of them. But this is what has happened in Germany....

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/general-election-2015-why-a-conlab-coalition-may-be-needed-to-save-the-united-kingdom-10092247.html

They're running scared enough to suggest the above rather than the SNP have any influence. Because in a hung parliament that 10% of seats matters, and matters rather too much for many to accept.

Generali

Shakethedisease wrote: »

Balance of power ? Not mean anything to you then ?

Why do you think David Cameron, Lords, MP's and various newspaper columnists are calling for Labour to rule out a deal and/or Labour/Tories to unite to keep the SNP out ?

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/general-election-2015-why-a-conlab-coalition-may-be-needed-to-save-the-united-kingdom-10092247.html

They're running scared enough to suggest the above rather than the SNP have any influence. Because in a hung parliament that 10% of seats matters, and matters rather too much for many to accept.

The polling data I linked to the other day showed that as things stand, the SNP are unlikely to be holding the balance of power. The reason? The SNP are taking seats directly from Labour and Labour isn't picking up enough votes in the rest of the country to be able to form a Government with just the support of the SNP.

If the SNP were taking large numbers of seats from other parties, they would be able to support a Labour Government. Trouble is, they're not as the Tories have insignificant numbers of seats in Scotland.

To form a majority Government on the current showing, Labour would need to form other alliances, not just with the SNP. Any fantasies of being able to pin your Nationalist ideals onto the Labour donkey are likely to remain fantasies.

HAMISH_MCTAVISH

Here are the latest projections....

All four are now projecting the Conservatives to have the most seats.

Elections Etc – Hung Parliament, CON 286(+7), LAB 278(-5), LD 22(-1), SNP 40(nc), UKIP 3(nc)

Election Forecast – Hung Parliament, CON 286(+1), LAB 280(+4), LD 24(-3), SNP 38(-1), UKIP 1(nc)

May 2015 – Hung Parliament, CON 276(+6), LAB 271(nc), LD 23(-3), SNP 55(-1), UKIP 3(-1)

Guardian – Hung Parliament, CON 275(nc), LAB 271(nc), LD 26(-1), SNP 52(+1), UKIP 4(nc)

http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/

And as a certain Scottish politician once put it....

"The People having taken part in a democratic ballot will expect the leading party to form a government"

~ Alec Salmond