Salmond and Sturgeon Want the English Fish for More Fat Subsidies

Mistermeaner

Do you prefer bung?

Thrugelmir

HornetSaver wrote: »

which whatever you think of it politically was well run and got its messages across.

So was the Labour leadership campaign.

Doesn't mean that it was flawless. Nor that all individuals are sincere. Self interest unfortunately influences much of British culture these days.

HornetSaver

Thrugelmir wrote: »

So was the Labour leadership campaign.

Doesn't mean that it was flawless. Nor that all individuals are sincere. Self interest unfortunately influences much of British culture these days.

That's democracy for you.

It's also precisely my point. The numbers are there for Scotland to vote Yes next time - they were there the last time. It's obvious that a majority prefer the idea. But in my opinion No won last time because swing voters concluded that they, individually, were more likely to be better off by not rocking the boat. Hence why Yes did particularly poorly vs expectation in rural areas, even previous SNP held Westminster areas, but quite well in Dundee and Glasgow, where rolling the dice on personal circumstances seems less of a gamble for a higher percentage of people.

Linking back into the wider forum title for a moment, it's the same reason that the housing market in southern England is so overcooked - too many people will acknowledge the problem but do little about it because it works for them. Not just landlords, but existing homeowners in general.

Shakethedisease

Tromking wrote: »

Aw diddums!
The burgeoning English antipathy toward Scots nationalists didn't just happen in a vacuum. The SNP manufactured Scottish grevience grates with lots of English people now, and just as your lot tap into any underlying antipathy toward the English, you shouldn't be surprised that there is real political capital to be had now in being anti-SNP. You started it!

It doesn't matter who started it. It's not good for the Union was the point I was making. While the Conservative campaign swung a lot of voters because of the 'threat' of Scottish MP's.. the perception of anti-Scottish feeling that came from it.. swung a lot of voters behind the SNP, even if they'd voted No in the referendum shortly before.

For all that Salmond is poison in the south of England, he routinely ( like Sturgeon after him ) topped every popularity poll going up here re politicians.

But anyway, the same tactic next time will cause more ill-feeling, both ways. So no doubt the Conservatives will milk it for all it's worth. That doesn't make it good for the union though.

Shakethedisease

HAMISH_MCTAVISH wrote: »

That part is true enough.

There would be more immigration, much more expensive energy, radically more austerity, huge cuts to defence, and almost no infrastructure spending due to the country being bankrupt.



That is also true.

Within the first 12 months after independence the core Yes voters would discover they'd been lied to about the state of an indy Scotland's finances.

As the costs of goods and services started to rise, lending into the economy came to a halt, and punitive tax increases started to hammer the working and middle classes. The wealthy would of course long since have left defeating SNP plans to tax them instead.

By the time of the second budget, it would become very clear that the savage cuts to benefits, services, and state employment dwarfed anything the Tories had planned for austerity.

And as Scotland slipped into a Great Depression, with actual poverty returning to the nation's people for the first time in 50 years, and unemployment pushing 25%, the SNP would become pariahs... Hated and despised, consigned to the political wilderness for generations to come.

So yes, it's fair to say, one of the main changes would be political.

Just not the change you were thinking....

Hamish. How could the Scottish public possibly on any planet be seen to have been lied to about the state of an independent Scotland's finances ? Every single media outlet in the country is stating the same as you are. And have been for years now.

Are you under the impression that Scots voters do not read, nor watch television anymore ? And have been deaf, dumb and blind to all around them since the SNP moved into Holyrood and called the referendum ?

Why is it that despite endless repetition and wide exposure of exactly the same things you state, to the entirety of Scotland's electorate...that the SNP are getting away with 'lying' ?

Genuine question by the way. Happy New Year ! :beer:

CLAPTON

Shakethedisease wrote: »

It doesn't matter who started it. It's not good for the Union was the point I was making. While the Conservative campaign swung a lot of voters because of the 'threat' of Scottish MP's.. the perception of anti-Scottish feeling that came from it.. swung a lot of voters behind the SNP, even if they'd voted No in the referendum shortly before.

For all that Salmond is poison in the south of England, he routinely ( like Sturgeon after him ) topped every popularity poll going up here re politicians.

But anyway, the same tactic next time will cause more ill-feeling, both ways. So no doubt the Conservatives will milk it for all it's worth. That doesn't make it good for the union though.

well, actually Salmond isn't poison it the South: mainly Scottish politicians are considered irrelevant now we have fewer in the UK cabinet.
Except where the Tories are divided (e.g. fox hunting) Scottish MPs count simply as Labour (i.e. will vote solely based on being anti government irrespective on the merit of the situation)
This was clearly seen in the vote about Syria: no consideration of the merits - merely anti Tory - may ISIL praise you all.

Shakethedisease

Thrugelmir wrote: »

Perhaps it's your needle that's stuck in the groove to the point of delusion. As long ago as March 2015.

What's happened to the oil price since?

No. I can just see the wood for the trees. I think there is far too much emphasis on oil prices re Scotland. One can only hope that it comes back to bite unionists in the bum at some point over the coming years. Oil prices being 'volatile' and all that.

It's certainly been no barrier to increased SNP/Independence support over the last few years. I guess you can make of that what you like...

HornetSaver

Shakethedisease wrote: »

It's certainly been no barrier to increased SNP/Independence support over the last few years. I guess you can make of that what you like...

SNP yes (they've basically obliterated every party except the Tories, who in fairness are no smaller now than 15 years ago).

Independence support was above 50% pre-referendum though, so it's hard to draw conclusions either way on that. The only pollsters to have covered themselves in any sort of glory in the past decade are exit pollsters.

Thrugelmir

Shakethedisease wrote: »

It's certainly been no barrier to increased SNP/Independence support over the last few years. I guess you can make of that what you like...

None at all. Tomorrow is what matters not yesterday.

.string.

Shakethedisease wrote: »

Hamish. How could the Scottish public possibly on any planet be seen to have been lied to about the state of an independent Scotland's finances ? Every single media outlet in the country is stating the same as you are. And have been for years now.

Are you under the impression that Scots voters do not read, nor watch television anymore ? And have been deaf, dumb and blind to all around them since the SNP moved into Holyrood and called the referendum ?

Why is it that despite endless repetition and wide exposure of exactly the same things you state, to the entirety of Scotland's electorate...that the SNP are getting away with 'lying' ?

Genuine question by the way. Happy New Year ! :beer:

It has been explained many times, Shakey, but you ignore the answer. The SNP knew that the oil price was falling during the election, but still pretended right to the end that the oil price was high, while others were pointing out the fact. Wherever no change made to the white paper. That was one big lie -- and there were others.

Why harp on about it? Well to remind people because the lies keep coming.