Salmond and Sturgeon Want the English Fish for More Fat Subsidies

Thrugelmir

.string. wrote: »

Why harp on about it? Well to remind people because the lies keep coming.

As the only other option requires the appearance of a fairy godmother. The low oil price can only limit or possibly further damage Scotland's economy in the medium term. At least in Saudi they can guarantee decent weather.

elantan

.string. wrote: »

I've been paying enough attention thank you.

You sure ? Cause if so you've been missing some doozy's

Generali

Shakethedisease wrote: »

It doesn't matter who started it. It's not good for the Union was the point I was making. While the Conservative campaign swung a lot of voters because of the 'threat' of Scottish MP's.. the perception of anti-Scottish feeling that came from it.. swung a lot of voters behind the SNP, even if they'd voted No in the referendum shortly before.

For all that Salmond is poison in the south of England, he routinely ( like Sturgeon after him ) topped every popularity poll going up here re politicians.

But anyway, the same tactic next time will cause more ill-feeling, both ways. So no doubt the Conservatives will milk it for all it's worth. That doesn't make it good for the union though.

But in your view nothing is good for the Union and all possible events lead to an independent Scotland.

zagubov

Generali wrote: »

But in your view nothing is good for the Union and all possible events lead to an independent Scotland.

Look at how politics is going north of the border.

The SNP is doing well, and that’s not over yet.

The SNP is doing better than it should based on its performance in power.

Its performance therefore isn’t responsible for its success.

There are other parties in Holyrood or Westminster who are trying to change it.

They’re not yet achieving that.

They’re critically analysing the SNPs performance. With no noticeable effect.

They’re not critically analysing other parties performance (e.g their own).

They’re unworried if they seem as more inimical to Scotland or incompetent at running it.

They need to present themselves as more able to improve Scotland’s condition.

They need to do it in positive terms rather than exaggerating the irrelevant weaknesses of the SNP.

They don’t accept this, and are regressing politiically in Scotland.

Everybody deserves a Happy New Year. :beer:

HornetSaver

zagubov wrote: »

They’re not critically analysing other parties performance (e.g their own).

The one flaw in this otherwise reasonable sequence.

Labour's strategy (enforced by the election admittedly), is to rip everything up since 2001 and start afresh. The Tories' is to continue to maintain that right is right for Scotland and they'll eventually win the nation back (in reality their best hope is evenly split opposition in the sort of seats that would be Tory in England. Had Labour's collapse been slightly less extreme the Tories might have gained a few in 2015). The Lib Dems' is to continue to remind people that they exist and worry about the rest later.

Only one of those parties really needs to look inwards to achieve what they're setting out to achieve.

HAMISH_MCTAVISH

zagubov wrote: »

The SNP is doing better than it should based on its performance in power.

Its performance therefore isn’t responsible for its success.

Well on that point we agree.

HAMISH_MCTAVISH

Shakethedisease wrote: »

Why is it that despite endless repetition and wide exposure of exactly the same things you state, to the entirety of Scotland's electorate...that the SNP are getting away with 'lying' ?

Because the SNP have not yet come out and stated clearly to the nation the costs of leaving the UK.

They still persist with delusions like 'oil is just a bonus'.

When the SNP and everyone else in the Yes campaign comes out and states the truth, that the economic costs of leaving will be huge, that enormous tax rises and service/benefits cuts will be required, that people will be poorer and less secure, that their wealth and prosperity will be blighted for a generation at least, only then can an honest conversation happen about indy.

Shakethedisease

HornetSaver wrote: »

SNP yes (they've basically obliterated every party except the Tories, who in fairness are no smaller now than 15 years ago).

Independence support was above 50% pre-referendum though, so it's hard to draw conclusions either way on that. The only pollsters to have covered themselves in any sort of glory in the past decade are exit pollsters.

The polls in Scotland leading up to the General Election were all correct. And only one poll ever put independence support above 50% during the entire three years leading up to the referendum. In just 15 months since the referendum there have been seven putting Yes ahead and a dead heat.

Scottish only polling has been pretty bang on more or less. John Curtice did the GE exit polls. He also ran 'What Scotland Think's' during the referendum period. The 'trend' overall, during and even after the referendum has been upwards. The oil price however, has tanked completely in tandem with the rise in polling. QED. Oil prices, and the effect on people thinking about an independent Scotland is negligible.

Generali

I suspect that it's because the SNP haven't been frank about the impact of oil prices on a potentially independent Scotland.

The polls were correct. The thing now is that the question being asked is wholly hypothetical.

Shakethedisease

Generali wrote: »

But in your view nothing is good for the Union and all possible events lead to an independent Scotland.

And you think Conservative governments over the next 10, 15 years... going all out at election time, every time.. denigrating Scottish MP's as pickpockets, 'most dangerous people in Britain' blah blah.. is promoting our union of nations ?

Labour was the 'glue' holding Scotland and England together politically. It was the only party in common. They're now imploding and losing ground in both. Either imo they'll have to 'officially' split, they already are split... geographically ( separate Scotland/England), or idealogically ( right/left/get rid of the 'Blairites' ). Or they can limp on until 2020 infighting for all their worth and no one having a clue what they stand for.

Until they start recovering ground the SNP will remain dominant north of the border with support increasing ( the demographics for SNP/independence says time is on their side )... and the Conservatives will remain dominant in England. While the Conservatives remain dominant in England, support for independence/SNP will grow in Scotland.. and so on and so on...

It'll all come to a head sooner or later over the next electoral cycle.