Salmond and Sturgeon Want the English Fish for More Fat Subsidies

elantan

What did u win ?


What did I miss ?

Leanne1812

elantan wrote: »

What did u win ?


What did I miss ?

Zag won poster of the year over on DT, by a landslide too.

Aye, he's a good yin

Shakethedisease

LABMAN wrote: »

Find me anything that works giving Scots a better deal by being independent after the oil price collapse?

Fill your boots. There are 'alternative' views on Scotland's 'debt' for example. I didn't quote all of it. It's too long.

Scottish 'Debt Mountain' is a Molehill

The Scottish Government has consistently advocated an alternative approach [to Osborne’s austerity], that would ensure the deficit is reduced whilst also allowing for significant additional investment in public services compared to the Chancellor’s plans.

If I read The Guardian’s bit of bold investigative journalism correctly, the £50 billion refers to accumulated borrowing now through 2019. Calculating the height of the debt “mountain” is not straight-forward, however. Comparing this borrowing spree to Scottish public expenditure provides a useful start. If the £50 billion refers to 2015-2019, it implies annual borrowing of £12.5 billion.
For the 12 months ending June 2015 Scottish GDP was £143 billion, which makes the annual investment borrowing 8.7% of GDP for the current year and about 8% should Scottish GDP grow at a modest 2% per year between now and 2020. Whether that borrowing ratio is a “spending spree” depends on one’s view of the wisdom of investing in health, education and transport infrastructure and the cost of servicing the debt....


... However, the Scottish government has other debts, though not of its making. The UK public debt is by definition the debt obligations derivative from Parliamentary action. The UK government allocates this debt among the constituent parts of the United Kingdom on the basis of population. At the end of June 2015 – to match the timing of latest measure of Scottish GDP – UK public debt was £1513 billion.



The Office for National Statistics reports Scotland to have 8.4% of the UK population, implying a “Scottish debt share” of £127 billion. For the United Kingdom as a whole public debt represented 81% of GDP, and 89% for Scotland because of its lower per capital income. The practical meaning of this £127 billion is far from clear.



The government that sits in Holyrood legally incurred none of the debt, nor does it have any legal obligation to service that debt. As should be obvious, the obligation of Scottish population to honour the UK public debt results from being UK citizens, and that obligation is fulfilled through taxes paid to HMRC.

http://www.pieria.co.uk/articles/scottish_debt_mountain_is_a_molehill

Leanne1812

LABMAN wrote: »

I was actually born in that area and lived in Highburgh road for years...North Kelvinside, Broomhill, Anniesland, Milngavie or whatever you think may be posh now?


So not like 'el the wan' just maybe one or two perhaps?


Who else do you interact with? and what do they say?

I'm not quite sure what you expect to glean from anything I may say.....I interact with all different age groups & backgrounds. I have experience of care homes too and if it is nursing rather than residential that usually means communication is quite often limited.

Leanne1812

Welcome back Shakes, you've been missed

Shakethedisease

HAMISH_MCTAVISH wrote: »

Oh I have no doubt Labour are equally useless.

But it's not Labour, or the Tories, or the Lib Dems, who were willing to risk the future and prosperity of everyone in Scotland.

You're a bright guy Zag - you surely have to understand the truly horrific consequences we'd now be dealing with if the vote had gone the other way and we were only 90 days away from Separation... Just as the oil revenues an iScotland would be wholly dependant on went negative for the first time in history.

And the galling thing is, they knew the risks that they were taking with everyones lives, and were willing to gamble anyway.

The leaked Swinney cabinet memo was very clear on that point.

They understood full well that if oil did what it has now done an iScotland would be severely affected.

That memo was debunked ages ago. I remember errm.. 'discussing' it with you at the time. However, once again you're fighting the last referendum. It was lost by the Yes side. There's no point going over and over 'what might have been'. Things have moved on. It will be different if one is held again in the future.

Next time imo :-

1) The media, including the BBC will have very little influence. They've well jumped the shark today for example ( in the Herald ). 50% of the country don't trust them to be impartial anymore. They've brought it on themselves and there's a real crisis media wise brewing there. But we're getting to the point that people can predict media reaction with 100% certainty hours before it happens.

2) You're way off with the NHS, Police and other things the SNP are accused of. Most of it media spin (see above). Problems there are of course. But mostly problems that still would exist with Labour/Conservatives in charge also. We know this.

3) The economics of a Tory government, coupled with facing years of Tory politics.. will boost support for independence, whatever the vague/unknown/risky economic predictions for an independent Scotland will be. Oil included. Oil prices tanking have been no barrier whatsoever to SNP/Independence support rising over the last 18 months. Currency and the EU are busted flushes as well.

4) Labour No voters are now facing a choice they thought they'd never have to make. A pointless vote in Scotland for Labour, or to accept that the South of England will keep voting Tory for a while yet.. and that it's time to consider a vote for a big change if this isn't what they want. Imo this will be the biggest factor swinging a vote next time to Yes.

Labour isn't coming back in Scotland anytime soon. The Tories aren't in the picture either. The SNP won't rock the boat with anything 'radical' until after May. They need a majority and to keep the voters they have in order to secure the possibility of another indy ref on the horizon. So there's no point RISE, SSP, Solidarity, Greens or any of the rest of them shouting for more 'ambitious' budgets. It's steady as she goes for now.

There's five full years after that to get all the 'radical' stuff in place..and for Westminster, Labour, Trident renewal, EU fighting, austerity, Scottish Labour, and the Scottish media to p**s off Scots to the point independence is front and centre on the agenda again.

Shakethedisease

Leanne1812 wrote: »

Welcome back Shakes, you've been missed

I blame the person ( hubby) who bought me Sims 4 for Xmas... :o

CLAPTON

Shakethedisease wrote: »

That memo was debunked ages ago. I remember errm.. 'discussing' it with you at the time. However, once again you're fighting the last referendum. It was lost by the Yes side. There's no point going over and over 'what might have been'. Things have moved on. It will be different if one is held again in the future.

Next time imo :-

1) The media, including the BBC will have very little influence. They've well jumped the shark today for example ( in the Herald ). 50% of the country don't trust them to be impartial anymore. They've brought it on themselves and there's a real crisis media wise brewing there. But we're getting to the point that people can predict media reaction with 100% certainty hours before it happens.

2) You're way off with the NHS, Police and other things the SNP are accused of. Most of it media spin (see above). Problems there are of course. But mostly problems that still would exist with Labour/Conservatives in charge also. We know this.

3) The economics of a Tory government, coupled with facing years of Tory politics.. will boost support for independence, whatever the vague/unknown/risky economic predictions for an independent Scotland will be. Oil included. Oil prices tanking have been no barrier whatsoever to SNP/Independence support rising over the last 18 months. Currency and the EU are busted flushes as well.

4) Labour No voters are now facing a choice they thought they'd never have to make. A pointless vote in Scotland for Labour, or to accept that the South of England will keep voting Tory for a while yet.. and that it's time to consider a vote for a big change if this isn't what they want. Imo this will be the biggest factor swinging a vote next time to Yes.

Labour isn't coming back in Scotland anytime soon. The Tories aren't in the picture either. The SNP won't rock the boat with anything 'radical' until after May. They need a majority and to keep the voters they have in order to secure the possibility of another indy ref on the horizon. So there's no point RISE, SSP, Solidarity, Greens or any of the rest of them shouting for more 'ambitious' budgets. It's steady as she goes for now.

There's five full years after that to get all the 'radical' stuff in place..and for Westminster, Labour, Trident renewal, EU fighting, austerity, Scottish Labour, and the Scottish media to p**s off Scots to the point independence is front and centre on the agenda again.

so in summary
-SNP are committed to spending more
-SNP won't increase taxes (except to copy Tories stamp duty taxes- thank you George for the opportunity)
-SNP reconciles this by borrowing as much more as possible.

good plan given the commitment never to repay any debts once 'free'

will almost certainly be a prosperous new year

Tromking

Shakethedisease wrote: »

3) The economics of a Tory government, coupled with facing years of Tory politics.. will boost support for independence, whatever the vague/unknown/risky economic predictions for an independent Scotland will be.

You keep telling yourself that Shakey.
I see nothing in the runes to suggest that despite the SNP's domination of politics in Scotland that Scots will ever vote to cut the financial umbilical cord it enjoys with the rUK in favour of economic uncertainty that comes with independence. Of course you'll point to some poll which suggests otherwise, but the silence from Nationalists and general lack of intellectual curiosity on the problems Scotland would now be facing if YES had won, is telling.

Generali

Shakethedisease wrote: »

4) Labour No voters are now facing a choice they thought they'd never have to make. A pointless vote in Scotland for Labour, or to accept that the South of England will keep voting Tory for a while yet.. and that it's time to consider a vote for a big change if this isn't what they want. Imo this will be the biggest factor swinging a vote next time to Yes.

Labour isn't coming back in Scotland anytime soon. The Tories aren't in the picture either. The SNP won't rock the boat with anything 'radical' until after May. They need a majority and to keep the voters they have in order to secure the possibility of another indy ref on the horizon. So there's no point RISE, SSP, Solidarity, Greens or any of the rest of them shouting for more 'ambitious' budgets. It's steady as she goes for now.

So the choice for Labour voters in Scotland now is between SNP austerity and Tory austerity.

I realise that isn't the sales pitch but it is what is being touted. The main difference is that the SNP are asking for austerity far beyond what the Tories propose with the only gain being the promise of being run by different idiots with the same accent as the voters.