Salmond and Sturgeon Want the English Fish for More Fat Subsidies

Thrugelmir

CLAPTON wrote: »

-if the polls show a 'healthy ' majority for independence, then a demand for a new referendum all within 6 months

Economic conditions are unlikely to return for some years. I'd expect the SNP leadership to back track. This then leaves them totally exposed and accountable to the electorate. Hope they've some real policies in their back pockets.

HAMISH_MCTAVISH

Leanne1812 wrote: »

I find this quite interesting. I think what it's saying is you may agree with the SNP and their policies but because of one policy you fundamentally disagree with you wouldn't vote for them. They're actually not all that bad Hamish eh.....

No what I'm saying is I could never vote for a party that advocates the break up of the UK. If they renounce that then I'd consider voting for them just as I consider voting for any other party.

If you're asking what I think of the SNP or SNP policies outside of the Indy issue then that's a rather longer discussion...

CLAPTON

Thrugelmir wrote: »

Economic conditions are unlikely to return for some years. I'd expect the SNP leadership to back track. This then leaves them totally exposed and accountable to the electorate. Hope they've some real policies in their back pockets.

I don't think that the economics has anything to do with the decision to demand a new referendum, except as to how it affects the polls for YES.
If the polls are favourable they will fight for a new referendum as the opportunity may never be as favourable again.

Shakethedisease

Tromking wrote: »

The almost wholesale abandonment of Scottish Labour doesn't necessarily mean independence is inevitable, although I get that it's more likely. The case for independence rests simply on Nationalists persuading enough Scots to take a punt on a journey into the unknown.

There's at worst 45% who want full independence, adding into the mix monthly are core Scottish Labour voters who are vehemently anti-Tory. And may wish to start seriously considering a 'Tory free' future especially if they look likely to remain in power post 2020. There is also a proportion who were looking forward to much more in the way of meaningful powers for Scotland. Who are disappointed with what has happended so far... ( ie not much ).

If, as they say Scots are politically different to to the rest of UK,

When was the last time there was a Conservative majority in Scotland ? In anything ? Even at council level ?

a good start would be for the SNP to make use of Holyroods new ability to differentiate Scotland form the rUK, but they seem scared to do so.

The do plenty differently. Bedroom tax, free tuition fees, council tax freezes etc etc etc. While one can argue back and forth about the merits of each. All are a measure of not doing things the same way as Westminster, and using available devolved powers in order to do so. NHS, Policing, Law and Education are already separate entities and always have been.

Any old faux progressive can spend an over generous block grant, proper ones make political choices and stand or fail on their ability to persuade tax payers to pay for it.

Get back to us all won't you when you see Scottish Labour or any other political party north of the border ( or in fact south of it ) standing on a platform of much higher taxes for everyone. And saying it's the best thing ever !

At the moment the powers the Scottish Government have are from the 2012 Scotland Act, which only allow tax raises across all tax bands. It's a sledgehammer to crack a nut. No party in Scotland will EVER commit to using them. Total madness. Any further 'powers' from the new Scotland Act haven't been legislated for as yet. Once you can tell the difference between the two separate Scotland Act's and the powers they each contain you might have a rethink...you're obviously somehow under the false impression that the SNP have 'extensive' devolved powers the rest of us don't know about yet.

I don't sense as you do, a more radical SNP itching to take Scotland forward, I just see a bunch of very successful chancers desperate to hold on to the English subsidy.

Yes because a party who has stood and campaigned for full Scottish independence since the early part of the last century, and held a referendum only 18 months ago, on full Scottish independence.... is obviously desperate to hold on to any 'English' subsidies. You don't make sense, speak logic, or reason with any of that. In fact it made me laugh. It's such a stupendously daft thing to say.

No, that in fact was BetterTogether, Labour, Conservatives, and Lib Dems who were all adamant that Scotland should stay dependent on English 'largesse' forever more. Hamish here really loves the thought of Scot's being tied to English subsidies also ! The SNP and 'nationalists' ?... Nah, not so much.

CLAPTON

Shakethedisease wrote: »

There's at worst 45% who want full independence, adding into the mix monthly are core Scottish Labour voters who are vehemently anti-Tory. And may wish to start seriously considering a 'Tory free' future especially if they look likely to remain in power post 2020. There is also a proportion who were looking forward to much more in the way of meaningful powers for Scotland. Who are disappointed with what has happended so far... ( ie not much ).

When was the last time there was a Conservative majority in Scotland ? In anything ? Even at council level ?

The do plenty differently. Bedroom tax, free tuition fees, council tax freezes etc etc etc. While one can argue back and forth about the merits of each. All are a measure of not doing things the same way as Westminster, and using available devolved powers in order to do so. NHS, Policing, Law and Education are already separate entities and always have been.

Get back to us all won't you when you see Scottish Labour or any other political party north of the border ( or in fact south of it ) standing on a platform of much higher taxes for everyone. And saying it's the best thing ever !

At the moment the powers the Scottish Government have are from the 2012 Scotland Act, which only allow tax raises across all tax bands. It's a sledgehammer to crack a nut. No party in Scotland will EVER commit to using them. Total madness. Any further 'powers' from the new Scotland Act haven't been legislated for as yet. Once you can tell the difference between the two separate Scotland Act's and the powers they each contain you might have a rethink...you're obviously somehow under the false impression that the SNP have 'extensive' devolved powers the rest of us don't know about yet.

Yes because a party who has stood and campaigned for full Scottish independence since the early part of the last century, and held a referendum only 18 months ago, on full Scottish independence.... is obviously desperate to hold on to any 'English' subsidies. You don't make sense, speak logic, or reason with any of that. In fact it made me laugh. It's such a stupendously daft thing to say.

No, that in fact was BetterTogether, Labour, Conservatives, and Lib Dems who were all adamant that Scotland should stay dependent on English 'largess' forever more. Hamish here really loves the thought of Scot's being tied to English subsidies also ! The SNP and 'nationalists' ?... Nah, not so much.

very powerful arguments there
when do you think Nicola will start to demand the next referendum?

Thrugelmir

CLAPTON wrote: »

I don't think that the economics has anything to do with the decision to demand a new referendum, except as to how it affects the polls for YES.

Timing is key. No one wants to debate issues that aren't in their favour. Uncertainty can be hugely damaging.

Shakethedisease

CLAPTON wrote: »

I don't think that the economics has anything to do with the decision to demand a new referendum, except as to how it affects the polls for YES.
If the polls are favourable they will fight for a new referendum as the opportunity may never be as favourable again.

Cameron and the 'Remain' campaign will fight the EU referendum using the Scots having another independence referendum on the back of it leading the the 'break up of the UK'. There will be no question of the Scots not being allowed to hold one... during the EU 'in' campaign at least. They're already doing it.

Leaving the European Union could lead to the break-up of the United Kingdom while "gravely weakening" its former continental partners, former foreign secretary William Hague has warned. Writing in The Daily Telegraph, Lord Hague said Scottish nationalists would jump at the chance to re-open the independence debate if there was a vote to leave the EU in the forthcoming referendum on Britain's continued membership - now expected next year......"Scottish nationalists would jump at the chance to reverse the argument of last year's referendum - now it would be them saying they would stay in Europe without us.
They would have the pretext for their second referendum, and the result of it could well be too close to call."

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/14163596.William_Hague__leaving_the_EU_could_lead_to_the_break_up_of_the_UK/?ref=mr&lp=18

"Too close to call" = The Yes side would win next time. Hence the article title.

Mr Clegg, who quit as party leader following May's election, will tell the conference in Bournemouth: "The stakes could not be higher: not just one, but two, unions now hang in the balance. "If we vote to leave the EU, I have no doubt that the SNP will gleefully grab the opportunity to persuade the people of Scotland to leave the UK as well."

http://www.itv.com/news/2015-09-21/leaving-eu-could-spark-break-up-of-uk-nick-clegg-warns/

CLAPTON

Shakethedisease wrote: »

Cameron and the 'Remain' campaign will fight the EU referendum using the Scots having another independence referendum on the back of it leading the the 'break up of the UK'. There will be no question of the Scots not being allowed to hold one... during the EU 'in' campaign at least. They're already doing it.

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/14163596.William_Hague__leaving_the_EU_could_lead_to_the_break_up_of_the_UK/?ref=mr&lp=18

"Too close to call" = The Yes side would win next time. Hence the article title.

http://www.itv.com/news/2015-09-21/leaving-eu-could-spark-break-up-of-uk-nick-clegg-warns/

no idea what you are talking about

when will Nicola start calling for a new referendum?

Shakethedisease

CLAPTON wrote: »

very powerful arguments there
when do you think Nicola will start to demand the next referendum?

When she's sure to win it. The fiscal framework for the new Scotland Bill, Trident, the EU ref, and another Conservative majority loom large over the next few years. There is also a question mark over what direction Scottish Labour take after May if it's really bad. She can sit and wait. Imo there will be one (if there is one called) just after the next Conservative win in 2020.

But Corbyn might still surprise everyone yet. He won and has held on despite everything thrown at him.

Shakethedisease

CLAPTON wrote: »

no idea what you are talking about

when will Nicola start calling for a new referendum?

You said 'fight for' a new referendum.

If the polls are favourable they will fight for a new referendum

Like being able to call one was in question.