Salmond and Sturgeon Want the English Fish for More Fat Subsidies

Mistermeaner

Shakethedisease wrote: »

I blame the person ( hubby) who bought me Sims 4 for Xmas... :o

A very snp game.

Shakethedisease

Tromking wrote: »

You keep telling yourself that Shakey.
I see nothing in the runes to suggest that despite the SNP's domination of politics in Scotland that Scots will ever vote to cut the financial umbilical cord it enjoys with the rUK in favour of economic uncertainty that comes with independence. Of course you'll point to some poll which suggests otherwise, but the silence from Nationalists and general lack of intellectual curiosity on the problems Scotland would now be facing if YES had won, is telling.

The Labour party in Scotland is the key, not the SNP. Another rout in May will have them reassessing constitutional as well as geographical party divides. They've already voted as a Scottish party against Trident renewal. SNP dominance in Scotland is only one factor on the path to possible independence. As is Tory dominance in Westminster another.

If Scottish Labour MSP's decide to withdraw unconditional support for the union ( there is only 1 Labour Westminster MP left )... Then the debate in Scotland changes considerably. At the moment almost everyone apart from Scottish Tory voters ( about 12-14%), are in a state of perpetual disappointment with Westminster politics. Labour, and a lot of Labour voters thought the referendum would finish off the SNP for good. And would also herald their own revival both in Holyrood and Westminster.

They were very wrong on both counts. They're starting to wake up and smell the coffee now. Or 'read the runes' if you prefer.

Scottish Labour must quit UK party, says McLeish

FORMER First Minister Henry McLeish ...

McLeish said that a Scottish breakaway from Labour at Westminster may be the “only way of keeping Scotland in the Union” and of offering an alternative to the SNP’s vision of independence...He said: “I’m disappointed that the Labour Party down south at Westminster seems to be disintegrating.”
“I’ve often said that the Conservatives don’t understand Scotland, but I’m now concerned that UK Labour doesn’t seem to understand Scotland either.”...

McLeish also said that an independent Scottish Labour should not oppose a second referendum on independence, which he said should include options for Home Rule as well as leaving the UK.

He said: “Labour should not be over-cautious about the need for a second referendum and Labour should be strong enough to lead that debate. “If we have a referendum, there has to be more than one question and Labour has to start to provide an alternative.
“It may well be that you could have another question on whether Scotland requires further constitutional changes. You could have an option of Home Rule or independence.

“If you continue with the straight Yes-No debate that will be the way to carry independence towards a Yes vote.

http://www.scotsman.com/news/uk/scottish-labour-must-quit-uk-party-says-mcleish-1-3985190

( I didn't quote the full article it's too long).

Shakethedisease

Generali wrote: »

So the choice for Labour voters in Scotland now is between SNP austerity and Tory austerity.

I realise that isn't the sales pitch but it is what is being touted. The main difference is that the SNP are asking for austerity far beyond what the Tories propose with the only gain being the promise of being run by different idiots with the same accent as the voters.

They're more likely to vote for SNP-esque policies than Tory ones at the end of the day. Core hard line/old style/older generation red Labour voters in Scotland ( which is to say those which still remain Labour voters in Scotland in other words )... are the very least likely to welcome successive Conservative governments and the economic policies they implement within the UK.

The current situation must be giving them food for thought, and for rethinking previous stances. Corbyn has been a big disappointment for them. My dad ( one of the old style, SNP hating No/Labour voters above )... says he's a coward and that Labour is unelectable currently. He's unsure if he'd vote No again should there be a second referendum in the future. Changed days indeed.

CLAPTON

Shakethedisease wrote: »

They're more likely to vote for SNP-esque policies than Tory ones at the end of the day. Core hard line/old style/older generation red Labour voters in Scotland ( which is to say those which still remain Labour voters in Scotland in other words )... are the very least likely to welcome successive Conservative governments and the economic policies they implement within the UK.

The current situation must be giving them food for thought, and for rethinking previous stances. Corbyn has been a big disappointment for them. My dad ( one of the old style, SNP hating No/Labour voters above )... says he's a coward and that Labour is unelectable currently. He's unsure if he'd vote No again should there be a second referendum in the future. Changed days indeed.

more likely to vote for an SNP 3k extra stamp duty on second house than a tory 3k on second homes
more likely to vote for SNP tax rates of 20, 40 and 45% than Tory tax rates of 20, 40, 45%
they are obviously some of the more intelligent Scottish voters

Shakethedisease

CLAPTON wrote: »

more likely to vote for an SNP 3k extra stamp duty on second house than a tory 3k on second homes
more likely to vote for SNP tax rates of 20, 40 and 45% than Tory tax rates of 20, 40, 45%
they are obviously some of the more intelligent Scottish voters

Oh come now. I think we both know there is more to 'running an economy' or a country than simply being able to raise or lower taxes.

Here below is another Labour 'noteable' headlining today with calls for 'Home Rule'. If Scottish Labour really are now realising what the problem is ( unconditional unionism, no compromises) and are now making noises about weakening the union.. possible Home Rule... not being scared of second referendum.. members allowed to campaign for independence. This would mean all Holyrood parties in Scotland apart from the Tories/what's left of Lib Dems would either be advocates of Scottish Home Rule or Scottish independence.

But Scottish Labour will wait until after May, hoping against hope that 'something' will stop those awful polls becoming reality. And the council elections ( where Labour still have a large swathe of council control ) don't follow suit.

If it does happen. Scottish Labour will be at a crossroads. Oblivion as the ex Glasgow council leader points out.. ( safe to say he's an old style/SNP hating/No voter ) ... or to start advocating Home Rule and/or independence. The Scottish media will follow. Media which is also only now in the light of recent polls, and despite acres and acres of anti-SNP headlines, starting to realise and wake up to the fact that no one is listening. They don't make a difference anymore deluging Scots voters with unconditional union support either. They need to 'soften' stances too and become far more representative if they're to survive.

LABOUR could suffer the same near-extinction as the Tories north of the border if the party fails to return to its Scottish roots, one of the party’s former leading lights has warned. Ex-Glasgow City Council leader Steven Purcell said Labour’s decline echoed that of the Tories in the 1997 election, a disaster from which they never recovered.

Already reduced to a single MP, and with polls pointing to further humiliation in May’s Holyrood election, Purcell said Scottish Labour now faced a defining choice.
It could either rediscover its “radical home rule tradition” and present itself as Scotland’s party, working with the SNP if necessary, or limp into obscurity as a branch office of UK Labour....

...Unless we find the radical home rule tradition which was resurrected ... the last time there was a significant rise in the SNP, in the 1970s, then we have yet to reach rock bottom.
“People I know, who have been undiluted Labour supporters, tell me they don’t feel that Labour stands for Scotland any more. The party campaigned with the Tories in the referendum.

“If Labour doesn’t face this crossroads with utter honesty and courage, I believe it could be doomed to dwindling on the sidelines of Scottish politics for many many years to come.”

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/14168736.Scottish_Labour_heading_for_Tory_style_extinction__warns_Purcell/

CLAPTON

Shakethedisease wrote: »

Oh come now. I think we both know there is more to 'running an economy' or a country than simply being able to raise or lower taxes.

Here below is another Labour 'noteable' headlining today with calls for 'Home Rule'. If Scottish Labour really are now realising what the problem is ( unconditional unionism, no compromises) and are now making noises about weakening the union.. possible Home Rule... not being scared of second referendum.. members allowed to campaign for independence. This would mean all Holyrood parties in Scotland apart from the Tories/what's left of Lib Dems would either be advocates of Scottish Home Rule or Scottish independence.

But Scottish Labour will wait until after May, hoping against hope that 'something' will stop those awful polls becoming reality. And the council elections ( where Labour still have a large swathe of council control ) don't follow suit.

If it does happen. Scottish Labour will be at a crossroads. Oblivion as the ex Glasgow council leader points out.. ( safe to say he's an old style/SNP hating/No voter ) ... or to start advocating Home Rule and/or independence. The Scottish media will follow. Media which is also only now in the light of recent polls, and despite acres and acres of anti-SNP headlines, starting to realise and wake up to the fact that no one is listening. They don't make a difference anymore deluging Scots voters with unconditional union support either. They need to 'soften' stances too and become far more representative if they're to survive.

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/14168736.Scottish_Labour_heading_for_Tory_style_extinction__warns_Purcell/

I am fairily indifferent to the squabbling amongst the various scottish fractions : no interest in who said what to whom

Only really interested in real policies like taxation policy, spending and borrowing.

My heart always sinks a bit when I read racist stuff like 'return to Scottish roots', but I accept that that is essential in scottish politics
who of course see it as 'normal'.

The only real issues now seems to be May16 and aftermath: that will be fascinating.

HAMISH_MCTAVISH

Shakethedisease wrote: »

Here below is another Labour 'noteable' headlining today with calls for 'Home Rule'. If Scottish Labour really are now realising what the problem is ( unconditional unionism, no compromises) and are now making noises about weakening the union.. possible Home Rule... not being scared of second referendum.. members allowed to campaign for independence. This would mean all Holyrood parties in Scotland apart from the Tories/what's left of Lib Dems would either be advocates of Scottish Home Rule or Scottish independence.

Another disgraced central belt socialist that'd rather break up the country than accept most voters don't support their ideology.

Lets all remind ourselves of Purcell's past shall we...

The disgraced former leader of Glasgow council has admitted using cocaine and said fear of a blackmail plot helped push him into an emotional breakdown

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2010/mar/29/stephen-purcell-glasgow-cocaine-labour

So thanks for the advice and all but if he thinks giving in to the SNP is the salvation of Labour he's clearly not yet kicked that Cocaine habit....

Scottish Labour is failing to connect because it's looking in the wrong places.

If they want to continue fighting with the SNP over the 45% of the electorate that are Indy voters with a game of who can be further left then let them.

The real electoral gains are to be had uniting the 55% of the electorate that are Unionists who voted No.

But if Labour want to be the party that does it they have to swing right... With business friendly, low tax, policies that appeal to the middle classes and aspirational voters... And to do that they need credible, heavyweight, candidates with Gravitas instead of the local yokels they keep running today.

You can't out-SNP the SNP by allowing your members to become SNP-Lite.

That's a recipe for disaster which is no doubt why Shakey is in favour of it.

Tromking

Shakethedisease wrote: »

The Labour party in Scotland is the key, not the SNP. Another rout in May will have them reassessing constitutional as well as geographical party divides. They've already voted as a Scottish party against Trident renewal. SNP dominance in Scotland is only one factor on the path to possible independence. As is Tory dominance in Westminster another.

If Scottish Labour MSP's decide to withdraw unconditional support for the union ( there is only 1 Labour Westminster MP left )... Then the debate in Scotland changes considerably. At the moment almost everyone apart from Scottish Tory voters ( about 12-14%), are in a state of perpetual disappointment with Westminster politics. Labour, and a lot of Labour voters thought the referendum would finish off the SNP for good. And would also herald their own revival both in Holyrood and Westminster.

They were very wrong on both counts. They're starting to wake up and smell the coffee now. Or 'read the runes' if you prefer.

You as usual extrapolate way too much. People don't not vote Labour in referendums or SNP for that matter. They vote for independence or the continuance of the Union, or last time round they voted more specifically for the financial stability of the Union over quite the opposite that independence provides. Until that particular conundrum is solved by your beloved SNP then you and they are whistling in the wind. You do get that Scots could vote for the SNP ad infinitum and still never feel the need to vote for independence don't you?

Shakethedisease

HAMISH_MCTAVISH wrote: »

Another disgraced central belt socialist that'd rather break up the country than accept most voters don't support their ideology.

Lets all remind ourselves of Purcell's past shall we...


http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2010/mar/29/stephen-purcell-glasgow-cocaine-labour

So thanks for the advice and all but if he thinks giving in to the SNP is the salvation of Labour he's clearly not yet kicked that Cocaine habit....

Scottish Labour is failing to connect because it's looking in the wrong places.

If they want to continue fighting with the SNP over the 45% of the electorate that are Indy voters with a game of who can be further left then let them.

The real electoral gains are to be had uniting the 55% of the electorate that are Unionists who voted No.

But if Labour want to be the party that does it they have to swing right... With business friendly, low tax, policies that appeal to the middle classes and aspirational voters... And to do that they need credible, heavyweight, candidates with Gravitas instead of the local yokels they keep running today.

You can't out-SNP the SNP by allowing your members to become SNP-Lite.

That's a recipe for disaster which is no doubt why Shakey is in favour of it.

Purcell's past is actually in the article I linked to ( again too long to quote in full ). However, nontheless it's made headline news today in the Herald as I said. As did Henry McLeish in the Scotsman. Unfortunately for Scottish Labour, they can't out left the SNP, and it's a crowded market anyway in Scotland... and they can't out 'right' them either. That's when they stray into 'Red Tory' territory.... as they've learnt to their cost since Sept 14. They won't win votes that way either.

Scottish Labour voters that remain, and Scottish Conservative voters will never 'unite' in order to do anything much. Unfortunately for the vast majority of their voting lives, they've abhorred absolutely everything the other stood or stands for. In Scotland, independence aside, it's the SNP in the center ground. Including independence, Labour voters and indeed former First Ministers, and ex Glasgow council leaders... are now openly saying Home Rule and other constitutional alternatives should be discussed and considered if Scottish Labour don't want to disappear into oblivion. Sort of like the Tories did in Scotland in 1997... they've never recovered.

Once Labour in Scotland start going down Home Rule route, taking most of the Scottish media along with it. There's little chance of a way back.

But they'll wait and see what happens in May first. I mean, how bad can it get ?

Leanne1812

HAMISH_MCTAVISH wrote: »

Another disgraced central belt socialist that'd rather break up the country than accept most voters don't support their ideology.

Lets all remind ourselves of Purcell's past shall we...


http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2010/mar/29/stephen-purcell-glasgow-cocaine-labour

So thanks for the advice and all but if he thinks giving in to the SNP is the salvation of Labour he's clearly not yet kicked that Cocaine habit....

Scottish Labour is failing to connect because it's looking in the wrong places.

If they want to continue fighting with the SNP over the 45% of the electorate that are Indy voters with a game of who can be further left then let them.

The real electoral gains are to be had uniting the 55% of the electorate that are Unionists who voted No.

But if Labour want to be the party that does it they have to swing right... With business friendly, low tax, policies that appeal to the middle classes and aspirational voters... And to do that they need credible, heavyweight, candidates with Gravitas instead of the local yokels they keep running today.

You can't out-SNP the SNP by allowing your members to become SNP-Lite.

That's a recipe for disaster which is no doubt why Shakey is in favour of it.

I don't agree that 55% of the electorate are unionists. They may have voted No but I'm sure they're not all die-hard unionists. Will some of them vote SNP? I'm certain they will. Not necessarily because they agree wholeheartedly with the SNP but because the alternatives are not worthy.

Where to find these heavyweight candidates......what qualities will they need to possess? Surely if its a question of making a decision on which they have little experience they seek out advisors who do and decide accordingly. We only have to look at those who hold high office in the uk gov and ask what are their credentials before they entered politics to see they are not all experts in a particular field. I wonder if George put towel folder on his C.V

I'd be the first to admit some of the new SNP MP's may seem inexperienced but they are certainly putting in the hours and spending lots of time in Westminster & dealing with constituents & their communities. Isn't that the making of a good representative?

I do not know where labour go from here. If they move to the right they're trying to garner support from traditional conservatives. Then the red Tory tag will stick. I think they're in a no win situation. I'm quite sad for them actually. No one seems to take them seriously at all any more.