Salmond and Sturgeon Want the English Fish for More Fat Subsidies

Tromking

Leanne1812 wrote: »

I sincerely felt we could set the bar and become a more equal society, one that our neighbours would take a leaf from and say 'we'd like some of that' So, in turn I felt it would benefit all of the U.K. There's nothing that would have made me happier. I really feel, possibly include yourself here, people felt a personal insult that we'd want to leave you. It was about us taking a leap and hoping others would follow suit. Sincerely, I mean that.

Ah, the much talked about Scottish "more equal society". Does that soundbite even mean anything?
If anything the Scots should be aspiring to more like England.
England is a go ahead and wonderfully diverse nation and is generally comfortable in its own skin. It certainly isn't the Tory hell hole the SNP are keen to tell the gullible in Scotland it is, and I'm a Labour voter. I get the emotional and patriotic case for Scottish independence, but spare us the tripe about showing the rest of the UK the path to a "more equal society".

Leanne1812

Tromking wrote: »

Ah, the much talked about Scottish "more equal society". Does that soundbite even mean anything?
If anything the Scots should be aspiring to more like England.
England is a go ahead and wonderfully diverse nation and is generally comfortable in its own skin. It certainly isn't the Tory hell hole the SNP are keen to tell the gullible in Scotland it is, and I'm a Labour voter. I get the emotional and patriotic case for Scottish independence, but spare us the tripe about showing the rest of the UK the path to a "more equal society".

And this is exactly why I don't post so much on here. It is tiring. I was just being honest and open but you take that as an opportunity to try to criticise & dismiss my opinion.

I won't condemn your country though as you try to with mine but I would ask you what you have, that we don't, that Scotland should be aspiring to?

Shakethedisease

Leanne1812 wrote: »

Gen, you perhaps know I'm married to an Englishman ( fellow Yes voter) This was about breaking a political union, one that some of us feel is past its sell by date. I couldn't stress that enough.

I sincerely felt we could set the bar and become a more equal society, one that our neighbours would take a leaf from and say 'we'd like some of that' So, in turn I felt it would benefit all of the U.K. There's nothing that would have made me happier. I really feel, possibly include yourself here, people felt a personal insult that we'd want to leave you. It was about us taking a leap and hoping others would follow suit. Sincerely, I mean that.

When I look at Westminster and its traditions and etiquette I feel it needs to reform. I feel resentment about Scotland's representatives being ostracised. I'm not expecting them to have lots of say or power but it appears they are largely shunned as the 'separatists'. Where does that leave Scotland?

I know the oil situation is bad news but again, I am optimistic. We are a resource rich nation with a diverse economy, add to that the will,positivity & aims of the people and we are sorted. I say that lightly but look at our resources compared to other small nations and I don't think for a minute we'd be on our knees.

Well said. My feelings exactly ( any also my own fellow Yes voter English husband's ).

Generali

elantan wrote: »

We also reckoned we would've taken a cut in wages and pension ... again we thought it acceptable


Were better off financially under the Tories .... much better off compared to under Labour ... but that didn't matter either

It's not going to be just little cuts. ~20% is a huge amount to lose from Government spending. That will mean wholesale cuts to healthcare, welfare and education. The reality is that so little is spent elsewhere, the only place you can cut is from those three places.

Tromking

Leanne1812 wrote: »

And this is exactly why I don't post so much on here. It is tiring. I was just being honest and open but you take that as an opportunity to try to criticise & dismiss my opinion.

I won't condemn your country though as you try to with mine but I would ask you what you have, that we don't, that Scotland should be aspiring to?

I intimated in my previous post a couple of issues where England might be worth aspiring to. Although I only mentioned that in response to your rather arrogant suggestion that Scotland's neighbours were in need of help to have "more equal societies".
Spare us please.
I didn't dismiss your opinion, I merely disagreed with it.

Shakethedisease

Tromking wrote: »

Ah, the much talked about Scottish "more equal society". Does that soundbite even mean anything?
If anything the Scots should be aspiring to more like England.
England is a go ahead and wonderfully diverse nation and is generally comfortable in its own skin. It certainly isn't the Tory hell hole the SNP are keen to tell the gullible in Scotland it is, and I'm a Labour voter. I get the emotional and patriotic case for Scottish independence, but spare us the tripe about showing the rest of the UK the path to a "more equal society".

Yanis Varoufakis turned that on it's head a few days ago and made some interesting points. Arguing that it is in fact Scotland that has remained true to more traditional 'British post war' politics... and it is English politics that has moved elsewhere. Scotland just hasn't followed.

13/11/15

He argued that the UK’s drift away from the “post war economic consensus” - symbolised by nationalised state industries and a cradle to grave welfare state - meant it would be beneficial for Scotland to “move in its own direction” with independence.

Explaining his position, he said: “That post-war consensus of 1920-something to 1974 has collapsed now. And southern England has moved in a neo-liberal direction of its own. Scotland remains faithful to that [post-war economic] tradition.

“You’ve got southern England heading in its own direction away from that which created a one-nation consensus in Britain. So it’s they that are abandoning ship, not Scotland. Secondly you have the philosophical denial of Scottish national identity by the English establishment. Under those circumstances and within the context of a campaign for democratising the European Union it would make sense for Scotland to vote to move in its own direction.”

https://commonspace.scot/articles/2912/yanisvaroufakis-english-establishment-is-denying-scots-their-national-identity


He pretty much nailed it on Scotland staying true to old style post war Labour values all those years. Scottish voters voted for them, even when the rest of the UK moved on to Thatcherism. And when eventually Labour moved on to more neo-liberal politics.. Scotland once again, instead of going along with it, moved back (when an alternative emerged).. to voting in a party presenting more social democratic values than Labour seemed to.

Generali

We know from experience that those centrally planned economies don't work well and the only reason Scots can have the socialism that they have is because Londoners pay for it.

If Scotland leaves the Union (not when) then you can wave goodbye to the extensive welfare state and education system that you currently enjoy.

Shakethedisease

Generali wrote: »

We know from experience that those centrally planned economies don't work well and the only reason Scots can have the socialism that they have is because Londoners pay for it.

If Scotland leaves the Union (not when) then you can wave goodbye to the extensive welfare state and education system that you currently enjoy.

Whatever you say Generali. The UK's economy under successive Labour and Conservative stewardships hasn't exactly been laugh a minute either ( nor debt/deficit free ). Scotland is apparently a complete basket case.. within the Union !... To make any changes to 'basket case status' means leaving. Because it's patently obvious that sending MP's down to Westminster isn't working. May as well be skint outside the union with some leeway in doing things differently.. as skint within it, never changing anything and not even having MP's that can get a word in for disrespectful braying every day.

zagubov

Tromking wrote: »

Ah, the much talked about Scottish "more equal society". Does that soundbite even mean anything? Yes, many things. Ordinary citizens should expect to aspire to positions of power. They shouldn't have to go to Eton or Oxford or Cambridge first.
If anything the Scots should be aspiring to more like England. Er, that's uncomfortable reading. I don't recall anyone in Scotland saying the English should be more like Scotland, but what the hey, more fool me for expecting fairness here.

England is a go ahead and wonderfully diverse nation and is generally comfortable in its own skin. It certainly isn't the Tory hell hole the SNP are keen to tell the gullible in Scotland it is, and I'm a Labour voter. England is two different polities as far as I can tell. An egalitarian creative but powerless northern area and an overcrowded but privileged and somewhat parasitic south.

I get the emotional and patriotic case for Scottish independence, but spare us the tripe about showing the rest of the UK the path to a "more equal society".

I lived there long enough to "get" it. England's diversity is wonderful but somehow Scotland's isn't (see the Shetland/ Doria/ Highlands vs. Central Belt nonsense chucked about by several posters here).

"Diversity" in England is (apparently) paralleled by "internal contradictions" in Scotland. Because the Scots, magically, can't get anything right.

Yet weirdly ethnic minorities in England have to adopt the umbrella term British as they see English as an ethnicity; while in Scotland - they don't?

You're right that Scotland can't show the rest of the UK a path to a more equal society. Because none of the media based in the rest of the UK report on anything that reflects current thinking in Scotland at all.:(

Mistermeaner

Shakethedisease wrote: »

Whatever you say Generali. The UK's economy under successive Labour and Conservative stewardships hasn't exactly been laugh a minute either ( nor debt/deficit free ). Scotland is apparently a complete basket case.. within the Union !... To make any changes to 'basket case status' means leaving. Because it's patently obvious that sending MP's down to Westminster isn't working. May as well be skint outside the union with some leeway in doing things differently.. as skint within it, never changing anything and not even having MP's that can get a word in for disrespectful braying every day.

Even the grass is greener in scotland