Salmond and Sturgeon Want the English Fish for More Fat Subsidies

Tromking

Shakethedisease wrote: »

No. It's 'Blairite' ( for want of a better word) Labour voters who are pro-Trident, austerity, staunch union supporter types who are starting to align behind the Tories. Corbyn's election and Kezia suddenly u-turning on things like Trident and a more wishy-washy approach to any future referendum has probably been too much for them.

Is nothing whatsoever to do with religion or sectarianism.

Really?
I remember seeing an article claiming that the Union was saved by Church of Scotland (Protestant) voters and a reluctance by many traditional SNP supporters (Tartan Tories) to go nuclear and vote for separation.
You'll admit of course that a lot of the new central belt support for the SNP has been courtesy of former labour voters from the Irish Catholic community.....you maybe one yourself perhaps?

Shakethedisease

Tromking wrote: »

Really?
I remember seeing an article claiming that the Union was saved by Church of Scotland (Protestant) voters and a reluctance by many traditional SNP supporters (Tartan Tories) to go nuclear and vote for separation.
You'll admit of course that a lot of the new central belt support for the SNP has been courtesy of former labour voters from the Irish Catholic community.....you maybe one yourself perhaps?

Sectarianism, and all that goes with it is dying out. I think the 19th Sept in George Square was their last gasp.

Corbyn has alienated even that rapidly dying breed of politics as well with his previous Irish stances. Kezia Dugdale also with her 'mabye's aye, mebbye's naw' approach to any future referendum. There is no 'Irish Catholic community' so to speak anymore.

But anyway, this article might interest you as it does include the religion aspect. However, from the findings it could be said that it was English, Welsh and Northern Irish born voters that lost the Yes side the referendum.;)

Independence referendum figures revealed: Majority of Scots born here voted YES while voters from elsewhere in UK said NO...

A MAJORITY of voters born in Scotland said Yes to independence.
But nearly three-quarters of people from elsewhere in the UK voted No.....While 52.7 per cent of native-born Scots voted Yes, a massive 72.1 per cent of voters from England, Wales or Northern Ireland backed the Union.
There were more than 420,000 Britons from elsewhere in the UK living in Scotland when the last census was taken.
And if they cast their ballots in line with the findings of the Edinburgh University study, more than 300,000 of them will have voted No.


That’s a significant number in a contest that ended with 2,001,926 votes for No and 1,617,989 for Yes.

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/independence-referendum-figures-revealed-majority-5408163

The SNP has made nothing of these findings. And rightly so. But imo, I don't think religion had very much to do with it. I'm not religious myself by the way ( in answer to your question ).

elantan

I'm a Yes voting Shamanic Taoist myself ... not sure where that fits in with the Catholic analogy tbh

Tromking

Shakethedisease wrote: »

Sectarianism, and all that goes with it is dying out. I think the 19th Sept in George Square was their last gasp.

Corbyn has alienated even that rapidly dying breed of politics as well with his previous Irish stances. Kezia Dugdale also with her 'mabye's aye, mebbye's naw' approach to any future referendum. There is no 'Irish Catholic community' so to speak anymore.

But anyway, this article might interest you as it does include the religion aspect. However, from the findings it could be said that it was English, Welsh and Northern Irish born voters that lost the Yes side the referendum.;)

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/independence-referendum-figures-revealed-majority-5408163

The SNP has made nothing of these findings. And rightly so. But imo, I don't think religion had very much to do with it. I'm not religious myself by the way ( in answer to your question ).

I think you could be in denial.
Non Scottish born British citizens voting for their country to remain as is, is not the opposite reaction to Scots Irish Catholics voting to end a Union they might historically and culturally have a problem with.
There is evidence I feel to suggest that the advent of SNP popularity in the central belt has become a convenient front for the traditional antipathy toward the British state that is all too frequent in Irish Catholic areas.
I like you am not particularly religious, but am happy to declare that I'm from the Church of England and Cornish Chapel traditions. What about you Shakey?

Shakethedisease

Tromking wrote: »

I think you could be in denial.
Non Scottish born British citizens voting for their country to remain as is, is not the opposite reaction to Scots Irish Catholics voting to end a Union they might historically and culturally have a problem with.
There is evidence I feel to suggest that the advent of SNP popularity in the central belt has become a convenient front for the traditional antipathy toward the British state that is all too frequent in Irish Catholic areas.
I like you am not particularly religious, but am happy to declare that I'm from the Church of England and Cornish Chapel traditions. What about you Shakey?

Historically ? The family was staunchly Protestant. My gran going so far as to refuse to attend her eldest daughters wedding as she was marrying a Catholic. I attended a Protestant Sunday School until I was about 10. My sister and a few of my cousins are all big Rangers fans. She voted Yes. As did her two voting age children.

But honestly, you're over vastly egging the pudding. It's really not that big a deal anymore ( it's more football terrace stuff than anything else these days, and even less still since Rangers demotion). The Orange Walk a few weeks ago here, you'd be hard pressed to find anyone under 50 and it was a sadly depleted march from the glory days of the 1970's when I first remember them.

We've been through this subject about a million times on these threads already.

Those that are aligning towards the Tories and reflecting in the polling recently..,.are those that really don't like the sound of Corbyn. Getting rid of Trident. Or Scottish Labour being ok with members not supporting the union.

Tromking

Shakethedisease wrote: »

But honestly, you're over vastly egging the pudding. It's really not that big a deal anymore ( it's more football terrace stuff than anything else these days, and even less still since Rangers demotion). The Orange Walk a few weeks ago here, you'd be hard pressed to find anyone under 50 and it was a sadly depleted march from the glory days of the 1970's when I first remember them.

We've been through this subject about a million times on these threads already.

Those that are aligning towards the Tories and reflecting in the polling recently..,.are those that really don't like the sound of Corbyn. Getting rid of Trident. Or Scottish Labour being ok with members not supporting the union.

I'm not suggesting a return to old school Scots high profile sectarianism, merely pointing out that voting patterns will take on a sectarian or religious feel to it. I don't think it is too much of a stretch too suggest that former Labour supporting Scots Irish central belters who are happy overwhelmingly to vote for the end of the Union might be met with an equal reaction from Scots Protestants eventually.
Is it true that comparing three groups of voters, Protestants, non-religious and Catholics, only catholics voted in a majority for independence?
It is obviously hugely in the SNP's interest to portray themselves as a broad popular movement for all religions and none, but perhaps it's not the whole picture.

baldelectrician

Tromking wrote: »

I'm not suggesting a return to old school Scots high profile sectarianism, merely pointing out that voting patterns will take on a sectarian or religious feel to it. I don't think it is too much of a stretch too suggest that former Labour supporting Scots Irish central belters who are happy overwhelmingly to vote for the end of the Union might be met with an equal reaction from Scots Protestants eventually.
Is it true that comparing three groups of voters, Protestants, non-religious and Catholics, only catholics voted in a majority for independence?
It is obviously hugely in the SNP's interest to portray themselves as a broad popular movement for all religions and none, but perhaps it's not the whole picture.

I would disagree- during the past 2 years of referendum stuff the following has happened in our close family

• My better half (from a Presbyterian Ulster background) was and is a strong Yes supporter
• Her mum (who said I was a terrorist supporter not that long ago for supporting Scottish independence) now stated that if she lived in Scotland she would now vote YES (if there were to be a referendum)

I found campaigning there were 2 Labour supporting union loving parts of the NO camp;

1. The entrenched active Labour members of the old style left leaning Labour group (trade union activists, older people who didn't read social media etc)
2. Staunch Rangers supporters who were too thick to realise the Union of Parliaments (1707) was up for scrapping in the referendum, but the Union of Crowns (1603) was not up for debate at this point. They could not be persuaded from history of the fact that Scotland had a different parliament [but the same King / Queen ] for over 100 years between 1603 and 1707.

Both these NO camps could not be persuaded and it would be a waste of time to try.


The majority of Labour voters said that Labour had lost their way and went into bed with the Tories.

Leanne1812

Tromking wrote: »

I'm not suggesting a return to old school Scots high profile sectarianism, merely pointing out that voting patterns will take on a sectarian or religious feel to it. I don't think it is too much of a stretch too suggest that former Labour supporting Scots Irish central belters who are happy overwhelmingly to vote for the end of the Union might be met with an equal reaction from Scots Protestants eventually.
Is it true that comparing three groups of voters, Protestants, non-religious and Catholics, only catholics voted in a majority for independence?
It is obviously hugely in the SNP's interest to portray themselves as a broad popular movement for all religions and none, but perhaps it's not the whole picture.

As a Yes voting atheist with a Protestant background who also campaigned in the central belt during the ref I can honestly state that religion was never mentioned on any doorstep to me.

I believe the survey showing Catholics were a majority of yes voters also states that the research does not show their religion was a cause or factor in how people voted.

It was a vote to decide the future of Scotland, nothing whatsoever to do with religion.

Sectarianism is dying out thankfully. As Shakes said it's mostly older people who have these views, they will die and, thankfully, with them their ideology. I think it only comes to the fore at football matches these days. I certainly never read or hear of any incidents stemming from religious beliefs.

You'll need to spell out what you mean by ' not the whole picture' as I've no idea what you mean.

Leanne1812

Tromking wrote: »

Really?
I remember seeing an article claiming that the Union was saved by Church of Scotland (Protestant) voters and a reluctance by many traditional SNP supporters (Tartan Tories) to go nuclear and vote for separation.
You'll admit of course that a lot of the new central belt support for the SNP has been courtesy of former labour voters from the Irish Catholic community.....you maybe one yourself perhaps?

You may not know but CoS outnumber Catholics 2 to 1 in Scotland so hardly surprising.

Tromking

Leanne1812 wrote: »

You'll need to spell out what you mean by ' not the whole picture' as I've no idea what you mean.

I`m saying that despite the SNP drawing support from everywhere, Scots Irish/Catholic`s disproportionately support a break up of the Union.
Again from memory, I think I remember Yes votes were made up of circa 25% of CoS voters, followed by circa 45% of non-religious and circa 70% of Catholic voters.
That suggests a religious/sectarian bias in favour of independence by catholics to me.
A growing Tory vote in Scotland would suggest a reaction to that bias is in its early stages.