Salmond and Sturgeon Want the English Fish for More Fat Subsidies

Shakethedisease

Generali wrote: »

Are you seriously trying to suggest that the Scots, or indeed any other national group, vote in Parliament as a homogenous group?

Scotland has one Tory MP but he sits in Cabinet so it's a very strong voice that his voters have.

The separation would suggest that there's no love lost.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croatian_War_of_Independence

Fluffy Mundell ? He doesn't have a 'strong voice'. I'm afraid to say that he's been regarded as a bit of a joke figure in Scotland for years now. He won his seat by and large due to tactical voting and by the skin of his teeth. About 800 votes.
I'm sure he's a good MP for his constituency. But.. whenever he pops up on TV or in the papers telling us all 'how it is'. The SNP add another few ex-Labour voters to their ranks.

The fact is that Westminster is UK-wide and totally 'equal' when it suits folks like you to say so.. then it's not when it comes to SNP MP's having a 'say'. There will be some 'testing' times ahead when it comes to Trident. Unlike in the past ( when there were loads of Labour MP's about in Scotland ).... this time 57, and perhaps 58 Scottish MP's out of 59 will vote against renewal.. since they're based in Scotland and next to Scottish cities.

We'll have to see how far all this 'UK MP's are equal in Westminster' gets us... if EVEL is voted in in a few weeks time won't we ? There's no having this both ways. If England is to be a treated as separate country, as far as all UK MP's are concerned.. then safe to say Scotland is too as far as it's own MP's are concerned on reserved matters.

MSP's only vote on devolved matters. Never reserved ones as Trident is. Scotland's 'voice' there, is through it's MP's.

Happygreen

.string. wrote: »

Back in the real real world, Scotland is part of one country, the Union of GB etc which works for all its citizens.

Presumably you did not vote for the Union but most Scots did, so respect the settled will of the Scottish People.

If you consider a 55 : 45 most...looks more like the greater half to me.
And remember that scare tactics and false promises were the flavour of the month last year. It worked.
Scotland is one part of 4 countries governed by Westminster. This temporary "agreement" as per 55:45 % vote certainly works for some better than others.
Awaiting the beatings faithfully ....

Generali

Shakethedisease wrote: »

Fluffy Mundell ? He doesn't have a 'strong voice'. I'm afraid to say that he's been regarded as a bit of a joke figure in Scotland for years now. He won his seat by and large due to tactical voting and by the skin of his teeth. About 800 votes.
I'm sure he's a good MP for his constituency. But.. whenever he pops up on TV or in the papers telling us all 'how it is'. The SNP add another few ex-Labour voters to their ranks.

The fact is that Westminster is UK-wide and totally 'equal' when it suits folks like you to say so.. then it's not when it comes to SNP MP's having a 'say'. There will be some 'testing' times ahead when it comes to Trident. Unlike in the past ( when there were loads of Labour MP's about in Scotland ).... this time 57, and perhaps 58 Scottish MP's out of 59 will vote against renewal.. since they're based in Scotland and next to Scottish cities.

We'll have to see how far all this 'UK MP's are equal in Westminster' gets us... if EVEL is voted in in a few weeks time won't we ? There's no having this both ways. If England is to be a treated as separate country, as far as all UK MP's are concerned.. then safe to say Scotland is too as far as it's own MP's are concerned on reserved matters.

MSP's only vote on devolved matters. Never reserved ones as Trident is. Scotland's 'voice' there, is through it's MP's.

What 'say' do you expect 9% of the population to have? What about Yorkshire or Wales? Surely their MPs have exactly the same weight in the UK's Parliament as Scotland's.

You really need to understand. The People of Scotland got a vote on whether they wanted independence or not and conclusively voted against. They don't want independence and voted against. As a result you need to suck it up and get on within the current constitution. You had a chance for change and blew it.

Shakethedisease

Generali wrote: »

Probably best not to hold up the former Yugo as a fine example of how to break up a country.

As to the Slovakians? AIUI, they hated the Czechs to the extent that they voted for poverty. Thankfully only 45% of Scots were thus blinded either by hate or by the lies of the Nationalists.

No-one ever accuses you of blinding hatred for your own political stances. Though there are plenty, and I mean millions.. of people who can't understand why you have the views you do. But respect that you do anyway. However deluded, narrow minded and blinded you seem to them.

Calm down. The 45% was last September. It's hovering about 50% now ( Labour voters gradually starting to give up hope of a UK Labour party in power for the next decade helping things along no doubt )...

Generali

Shakethedisease wrote: »

Calm down. The 45% was last September. It's hovering about 50% now ( Labour voters gradually starting to give up hope of a UK Labour party in power for the next decade helping things along no doubt )...

Nope. 45% was a vote. 50% is a poll for an event that will not take place for decades if ever.

Shakethedisease

Generali wrote: »

What 'say' do you expect 9% of the population to have? What about Yorkshire or Wales? Surely their MPs have exactly the same weight in the UK's Parliament as Scotland's.

You really need to understand. The People of Scotland got a vote on whether they wanted independence or not and conclusively voted against. They don't want independence and voted against. As a result you need to suck it up and get on within the current constitution. You had a chance for change and blew it.

Oh I don't expect to have the SNP will have any say. At all. It all plays wonderfully into the SNP's hands. Even if we have nearly every single MP in Scotland voting against 'insert topic' we don't make a difference. How great is the Union ? Scottish MP's can't even get a single amendment into the Scotland Bill. How wonderful...

Suck it up buttercup.... or else... oh I don't know.. Independence next time ? You also in turn need to perhaps understand and accept the fact that Tories in government for the next decade or so ? Will almost certainly bring about independence. Scotland's political battles are between Labour/SNP.. the Tories are nowhere and haven't been since about 1997. There is no way that Scots will put up with 1 MP indefinitely imposing things like Trident ( for example ).. upon a set of voters that do not want it and have voted in 58 other MP's that oppose. 59 MP's is all they get UK wise. They can't do any more within the UK.

QED. The only other path for them is out of the UK in order to get the changes that they want.*

* Unless Corbyn turns the Labour party into the most leftwing Labour party that's been seen for the last 25 years.. AND looks like winning the next General Election.

Shakethedisease

Generali wrote: »

Nope. 45% was a vote. 50% is a poll for an event that will not take place for decades if ever.

There will be another independence referendum just after the next Conservative General Election win in 2020/21. If not sooner depending on the EU ref ( which I expect will be a 'remain' vote but you never know ). SNP AND Labour voters in Scotland will make sure of it. And you can take that to the bank if there's another Tory win on the cards.

baldelectrician

Shakethedisease wrote: »

There will be another independence referendum just after the next Conservative General Election win in 2020/21. If not sooner depending on the EU ref ( which I expect will be a 'remain' vote but you never know ). SNP AND Labour voters in Scotland will make sure of it. And you can take that to the bank if there's another Tory win on the cards.

I reckon the same.
The 'powers' coming are just window dressing with a trap the SNP are not likely to fall into (the more powers but less money trap) being touted by Blundell (whilst ignoring the 'no detriment' clause in the Smith Commission)


I don't want another referendum on the horizon until the other side of the 2020 election. Another 5 years of the Tories and Labour in meltdown will harden the view towards indyref2.
Take this together with the demography of the younger more politically active young and the older generation who will come to see the vow hasn't been delivered makes for a good outlook on the indyref #2


Then add into the mix a possible EU no vote by the rest of the UK (with Scotland voting to stay in) things are looking interesting.

Generali

Shakethedisease wrote: »

There will be another independence referendum just after the next Conservative General Election win in 2020/21. If not sooner depending on the EU ref ( which I expect will be a 'remain' vote but you never know ). SNP AND Labour voters in Scotland will make sure of it. And you can take that to the bank if there's another Tory win on the cards.

I despair if the Scots people would decide to tear up 300 years of successful co-operation because of 10 years of Government they didn't vote for. What happens when the Highlands and Islands vote for a different Government to the Central Belt and then Stornaway for a different Government to Bute?

That argument is divisive and is purely designed to foment hatred of the 'English' Tories.

wotsthat

Shakethedisease wrote: »

There will be another independence referendum just after the next Conservative General Election win in 2020/21. If not sooner depending on the EU ref ( which I expect will be a 'remain' vote but you never know ). SNP AND Labour voters in Scotland will make sure of it. And you can take that to the bank if there's another Tory win on the cards.

I doubt the SNP have the bottle to wait for 2020 or give a monkey's about other events. There's an opportunity cost in voting for a single issue party - the SNP must worry about the invoice even if their disciples don't.

Why not go for late 2016 and if that fails wait another generation and go for it again in 2020?