Salmond and Sturgeon Want the English Fish for More Fat Subsidies

CLAPTON

kabayiri wrote: »

Didn't we have the same sort of feeling in 2010?

Ie, all the main parties at the time were talking nice things, courting and coaxing the voters with soothing words.

As soon as the election was over, the tone changed completely.

It is probably cynical but I don't have any confidence in the fiscal plans of most of them. (Least of all the SNP because they plan to coax us all into more spending before bu**ering off saying "so long and thanks for all the fish")

my memory of 5 years ago seems to mention the need for reducing the deficit in a single parliament and how awful things were

Froggitt

There was no appetite in the country to reduce the deficit in one parliament, therefore it didn't happen. Libs in the coalition made sure of that.

Shakethedisease

Generali wrote: »

Indeed.

If, as I suspect, the SNP are out to gain maximum cash for Scotland whilst driving as big a wedge as possible between the English and Scottish then Labour and Conservatives can simply repeal the Fixed Terms of Parliament.

I don't know how you haven't worked out that it would be electoral suicide for any British party to kowtow to the SNP. If a party loses Scotland they can win an election as the Tories have many times but if a party loses England they will never form a Government.

You seem to think that the SNP can simply do whatever the heck they want with no consequences from English voters. That simply isn't the case.

That's not what I said. I said that minority governments work on compromise. The notion that Ed Miliband or David Cameron can take office without a majority of seats... and then just steam roll entire manifesto's through without negotiations with whichever smaller parties are 'propping them up' just isn't how things work.

And if 'propping up' is done on a vote by vote basis then smaller parties are free to vote for, against or abstain on any issues they agree/don't agree with. Or to negotiate in order to provide support.

Labour and Conservatives do have the option to repeal the FTPA.. but it is unlikely that they will do so. Most especially, if they gain office via weak, unpredictable minority administrations. However, I agree, it wasn't a well thought out piece of legislation which has the potential to 'lock' even governments desperately trying to vote themselves out of office, ( perhaps due to a rise in popularity and looking for a majority ),.. into a full five years. Definitely needs to be looked at.

Any wedges being driven are being driven solely by the Tory party campaign at the moment. I understand that you really don't want to see this, and are a bit blinkered perhaps. But is exactly what is happening and most intelligent commentary recognises it for what it is. English voters and 'consequences'.. what do you mean by that exactly ? Consequences.. seems a vaguely threatening to me. Do expand.

Of course a government reliant upon those ghastly Jocks would be just the thing to rankle the quiet people of England in Peterborough, Stevenage and Slough but there you have it. Them’s the breaks. Sometimes it is necessary to lump them. It is not, on the other hand, necessary to grant any credit to a Conservative and Unionist party that increasingly appears to be taking its cue from Charles Churchill and John Wilkes.
Are the Tories stupid or are they cynical? The answer, naturally, is both.

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2015/04/yes-of-course-an-snp-backed-labour-government-is-perfectly-legitimate/

The Tories' anti-Scottish rhetoric is dangerous. It could also work ? The Conservative party have given up on Scotland. That's the inevitable conclusion from their campaign this week which has focused almost exclusively on ramping up English fears about the rise of the SNP..

...The purpose of these two interventions could not be clearer. They were both designed to create and inflame anti-Scottish feeling among the English in order to stay in power.
It is an ugly and divisive strategy. But will it actually work?


The price of such a victory could be large. As several senior Tory figures have warned over the past few days, Cameron's rhetoric risks further straining relations between Scotland and England and could even put the future of the Union at risk.

http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2015/04/22/the-tories-anti-scottish-rhetoric-is-dangerous-it-could-also

kabayiri

Blimey

Mr Hosie is getting "hosed" on the Daily Politics : economics debate by Andrew Neil and Robert Peston.

Luckily, the UKIP bloke deflected the topic.

Narrow escape

.string.

Shakethedisease wrote: »

... Any wedges being driven are being driven solely by the Tory party...

Maybe, if you discount the speeches by the SNP, including the stated intention of Sturgeon to meddle in a Parliament to which she is not elected and coming from an election system which elects her because she is a Member of the SNP, and is therefore only representing that faction and sod all else. But I would say that what the Tories are doing is warning about the devious aims of the SNP rather than driving wedges.


Then if you add in the boasting of Salmond about what he is about to do in Westminster and the .... Oh I forget, they all have to kowtow to Sturgeon don't they; they don't have anything of value themselves to add to Westminster. They should - they are meant to represent all the people in their constituency, not just the SNP Yes rump; but no - they have to mirror the SNP separatist agenda - or else.

Shakethedisease

kabayiri wrote: »

Blimey

Mr Hosie is getting "hosed" on the Daily Politics : economics debate by Andrew Neil and Robert Peston.

Luckily, the UKIP bloke deflected the topic.

Narrow escape

Really ? That's not how others are reporting it, will have to catch it later. But Hosie's message seems solid enough.

Fiscal austerity has involved reduced public spending in many areas, including welfare payments. The general consensus among economists such as those at the Institute for Fiscal Studies is that fiscal consolidation has hit two groups more than most: the rich and the poor. It is therefore reasonable to say austerity in itself has increased child poverty. As living standards have fallen generally, then relative levels of poverty in general – which measure the poverty gap – have not increased over the last few years, although absolute levels of poverty have. However, Sturgeon is careful in her statement to talk about the impact of fiscal austerity.
The assertion that fiscal austerity has “undermined our public services” comes close to being a tautology. To suggest otherwise you would have to argue that spending less on public services has only increased the efficiency with which they were delivered.
Verdict

Nicola Sturgeon’s statement on the economic impact of austerity on the UK is correct, with no qualifications.

http://theconversation.com/fact-check-has-austerity-held-back-economic-growth-40578

Shakethedisease

.string. wrote: »

Maybe, if you discount the speeches by the SNP, including the stated intention of Sturgeon to meddle in a Parliament to which she is not elected and coming from an election system which elects her because she is a Member of the SNP, and is therefore only representing that faction and sod all else. But I would say that what the Tories are doing is warning about the devious aims of the SNP rather than driving wedges.

Well you could view it that way. However, the general consensus seems to be that Cameron is stirring up really nasty Anti-Scot's feeling in an attempt to hang onto power and de-legitimise any SNP-Labour govt forming. If SNP MP's are returned to Westminster they will have as much right as Labour/Lib Dems/Tory etc MP's to vote how they see fit while there.

Then if you add in the boasting of Salmond about what he is about to do in Westminster and the .... Oh I forget, they all have to kowtow to Sturgeon don't they; they don't have anything of value themselves to add to Westminster. They should - they are meant to represent all the people in their constituency, not just the SNP Yes rump; but no - they have to mirror the SNP separatist agenda - or else.

Most people in Scotland when asked across the board and across party lines state they want much more in the way of further powers for Scotland ( I've provided you with plenty of polls stating this ). So, yes, the SNP will actually reflect the vast majority of their constituents in that aim. Nothing wrong with that. It's what MP's are supposed to do as you point out yourself.

CLAPTON

Shakethedisease wrote: »

Well you could view it that way. However, the general consensus seems to be that Cameron is stirring up really nasty Anti-Scot's feeling in an attempt to hang onto power and de-legitimise any SNP-Labour govt forming. If SNP MP's are returned to Westminster they will have as much right as Labour/Lib Dems/Tory etc MP's to vote how they see fit while there.

Most people in Scotland when asked across the board and across party lines state they want much more in the way of further powers for Scotland ( I've provided you with plenty of polls stating this ). So, yes, the SNP will actually reflect the vast majority of their constituents in that aim. Nothing wrong with that. It's what MP's are supposed to do as you point out yourself.

the over whelming consensus, including the much loved IFS is that

-the Scots get a massively unfair financial settlement compared to the good people of Yorkshire

and

-if Scotland had independance or dev max there would be a multi billion pound black hole in their budget

.string.

Shakethedisease wrote: »

... If SNP MP's are returned to Westminster they will have as much right as Labour/Lib Dems/Tory etc MP's to vote how they see fit while there. ...

You really can't take in points which run counter to SNP spin. Try reading things properly.

As I and others have pointed out, SNP MPs will toe the party line as written by Sturgeon; their "free will" is only free in the sense that it is dictated to them by the SNP leader outside Parliament.

scott_lithgows

CLAPTON wrote: »

the over whelming consensus, including the much loved IFS is that

-the Scots get a massively unfair financial settlement compared to the good people of Yorkshire

and

-if Scotland had independance or dev max there would be a multi billion pound black hole in their budget

Would love Yorkshire and the North of England to rise up lol.Love my hols down your way,pity bout all the closed railway lines while London gets a multi billion pound railway to get them home 5 minutes earlier!