Salmond and Sturgeon Want the English Fish for More Fat Subsidies

Tromking

The SNP have ceased to be the party of Independence or FFA or any other such pipe dream. They exist solely to propagate the myth of Scottish grievance and thus extort money from Westminster.
The Scots deserve better.

kabayiri

Tromking wrote: »

The SNP have ceased to be the party of Independence or FFA or any other such pipe dream. They exist solely to propagate the myth of Scottish grievance and thus extort money from Westminster.
The Scots deserve better.

Indeed. I don't actually understand the vision of the SNP now.

- They were unable to convince the Scottish nation of the case for independence

- They don't want FFA or even have a timetable where they can bring their economy to a point where it is possible

- They don't seem to understand that an independent Scotland needs a smaller state spend to buffer against volatile oil prices.

What would the SNP advocates here want from UK to take FFA tomorrow? What is the price you are expecting rUK to stump up? The 90% of the voter base down here deserve to know.

Shakethedisease

Generali wrote: »

She's either lying or stupid in that case. She must realise that FFA would be the end for the SNP if they 'achieved' it. For the SNP it's something to be avoided at all costs!

I don't believe Ms Sturgeon is stupid.

Oh yes FFA is to be avoided at all costs.. but its the other parties that want to do the avoiding. So far. You're kidding yourself on if you think it's otherwise. As far as I can tell, the SNP are just being realistic over the prospects of it being offered ( ie zero ) so why waste valuable air time debating it. Beefing up the Smith commission/Vow/Holyrood/Powerhouse parliament ( cc Gordon Brown) would be a far better use of time. Because after all, that's exactly what was promised.

Labour, Tories and Lib Dems however, all know the SNP would jump at the chance of FFA along with about 65% of the Scottish electorate. Whatever graph's and blog post links Hamish post's up, ...as far as the polls and the Scottish electorate are concerned. On this one, he's definitely in the minority. He should get over it and move on.

Put it this way imo, the next time the question of cutting Scotland loose comes up in any form.. ( esp if Labour lose most Scottish MP's ).. there will be a lot of support from south of the border/media/press.. all helping things along saying what a good idea it is ! Have you visited Conservative home recently, or the Telegraph ? They are all starting to put it out there that the price of the Union ( lots of SNP MP's in Westminster ) is far too high.

Dan Hodges

Scotland will be governed by a secessionist party and will have decided to dispatch – virtually en masse – secessionists to represent the people of Scotland at the UK parliament. That will come in the wake of a general election campaign in which all three of the main parties of the Union have categorically stated they will ignore the democratic will of the voters of Scotland, and refuse to even countenance letting their freely elected representatives have any say in the governance of the nation of which they are citizens. All of which comes a year after 45 per cent of the people of Scotland decided they didn’t want to be part of the UK at all.

Anyone who thinks this scenario would form the basis for the continuance of a United Kingdom are deluding themselves. A more disunited political settlement is hard to imagine.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/general-election-2015/politics-blog/11544826/Nicola-Sturgeon-has-hijacked-this-election.-Where-she-takes-it-is-anyones-guess.html

Shakethedisease

kabayiri wrote: »

Indeed. I don't actually understand the vision of the SNP now.

- They were unable to convince the Scottish nation of the case for independence

- They don't want FFA or even have a timetable where they can bring their economy to a point where it is possible

- They don't seem to understand that an independent Scotland needs a smaller state spend to buffer against volatile oil prices.

What would the SNP advocates here want from UK to take FFA tomorrow? What is the price you are expecting rUK to stump up? The 90% of the voter base down here deserve to know.

The union the way things are looking will most probably end politically at the behest of Westminster, not Holyrood if it happens. But Scotland standing on it's own two feet economically means just exactly that. Why would you be paying a 'price' for any of it ? You've been a bit brainwashed about 'scrounging Jocks' a bit too much somewhere along the way mabye ?

What would happen during any transitional period, I don't know. But there is a difference between the transitional, and the eventual end result. Is important to be aware that there are differences between transitional fiscal arrangements and the eventual end arrangements though. And that while taxes, however much or little flow from Scottish taxpayers to the UK Treasury, that some form of block grant will remain in place.

FFA/ditching Barnett isn't just an overnight switch someone presses which produces instant 'black holes' about for everyone <--- When all is said and done however, it's just a campaign tactic at the moment. And a very repetitive one at that.

Can't you think of anything else to ramp up the SNP = bad stuff with ? Or is that really the 'best' that anyone can do these days ? Something that isn't even on offer anyway. I don't think you need worry too much about the SNP not offering much 'vision' to those with a vote in Scotland just yet...

Leanne1812

Anti SNP posters on here I think it's time you realised that Scotland does like this party. What you need to ask yourself is why? It's not even as if we can say it's just Yes areas who like them. All over Scotland - even places with large No majorities appear to have swung their support towards SNP. The big 2 don't appear to be offering what we want. They are flailing wildly and we all know it.

The problem I have is increasing inequality does not seem to be getting tackled. All we hear is stories of rich getting richer & poor getting poorer. The poorest being penalised while a blind eye is turned to the big tax evaders. I want the gap to be narrowed. All the trickling down is not happening is it? The system is not working for the majority and it appears we will vote for the SNP as they seem to want to at least try to tackle this. Will they do it, who knows? But the reality is we believe they will try! What is it you are not getting about this?

I'm no economist but neither are the vast majority of voters. I won't ever be convinced we don't hold our own till someone can supply me with a breakdown of where exactly our revenues go. You can throw GERS reports at me and tell me the scot gov uses these same figures but we can't get to the bottom of this troubling ( for me) issue. Hamish & others will quite gleefully state we are stupid. I don't think I'm stupid I'll just do what most people do and that's vote for the party that is closest to my own personal views.

As for talk of what do we want from the rUK I can only say I was a Yes voter who rejected dependence. Don't you wonder why it was such a fight to get us to stay if we are such a burden? Does that make sense to you because it baffles me still......

Leanne1812

I think this is quite apt for this thread.:)



https://twitter.com/redpeter99/status/589423778612043776

Leanne1812

And here's an interesting article for those who keep banging on about FFA.

http://www.businessforscotland.co.uk/5-reasons-full-fiscal-autonomy-will-create-jobs-grow-scotlands-economy/

elantan

Hubby watched the debate the other night and was so impressed with Nicola he joined the SNP ... from what i gather their numbers are up to 115,000 now ( this may not be correct though)

I havnt joined at this stage and still dont feel the need to but like my husband I was very impressed with Nicola on Thursday nights debate... Ive noticed they have started to get other women to try to smear Nicola just now, I can only presume a reason for this ( but possibly not the only reason) would be that if it was a male it wouldnt be as accepted as it would coming from a female.

It does seem to appear from my reading/viewing etc that WM is in a right panic mode due to the SNP situation as we have had project fear two ( no doubt that will continue) and I have no doubt another wee "VOW" or some such might be on the offering as well ( although I spose a person could technically argue that Murphy's new 250 Dr's promise could be seen as such ( purdah out the window again)

were less than three weeks to go now, so it's everything to play for and will certainly be an interesting time for those interested in it... my popcorn is ready

kabayiri

Shakethedisease wrote: »

The union the way things are looking will most probably end politically at the behest of Westminster, not Holyrood if it happens. But Scotland standing on it's own two feet economically means just exactly that. Why would you be paying a 'price' for any of it ? You've been a bit brainwashed about 'scrounging Jocks' a bit too much somewhere along the way mabye ?
...

Of course rUK will have to pay a price, because you currently receive a decent subsidy which will disappear.

I'm quite happy for Scotland to have independence or FFA. I've said before.

Just 'name your price'. How about £15bn quid one off payment?

You don't engage with anyone on numbers here. What about the £1700 per capita gap Hamish points to. Do you or Leanne recognise and accept this figure?

Shakethedisease

kabayiri wrote: »

Of course rUK will have to pay a price, because you currently receive a decent subsidy which will disappear.

I'm quite happy for Scotland to have independence or FFA. I've said before.

Just 'name your price'. How about £15bn quid one off payment?

You don't engage with anyone on numbers here. What about the £1700 per capita gap Hamish points to. Do you or Leanne recognise and accept this figure?

Oh why of course.. While the UK govt and/or the three main parties have vague hopes of hitting 'targets' by sometime veiled mistily in the future ( usually missed ). And throw contrasting reports round like confetti about paying down deficits.. hastily buried when they never seem to happen anyway promised. The SNP is expected to have instant, exact and precise figures to hand, over something that isn't offered by any of the three parties during the next five years. Right now too.. because Hamish posting up some guff from 'theQuietNo' or 'unitedagainstseperation' means it's all true ?

Hmmm lets have a think about that one shall we ?

Much copy has been spent analysing and ridiculing the SNP's Full Fiscal Autonomy desires with IFS quotes used to show how terrible it would be for Scotland. Yet support for the party seems to retain its burgeoning support in spite of the plethora of negative articles. They are fully aware that FFA would require a majority vote in the House of Commons and that both Labour and the Conservatives have ruled out such a move. It's dead. It's a dead policy. Long term aim at best and something for SNP MPs to complain that they can't get because of big bad Westminster. But the SNP have taken "under-promise, over deliver" to a whole new level by not actually making any promises.

...Scottish Labour, on the other hand, and even in contrast to the UK Labour party, seem to have hit the "pledge generator" button and promise something new and more ridiculous every day...

...But Jim Murphy's team are doing everything they can to undermine this with a campaign based on rubbishing the SNP, complaining about the SNP, running about in a Scotland top, slagging off the SNP, doing keepie uppies instead of voting on fracking, !!!!!ing about the SNP and making a whole bunch of promises.

..The strategy of Jim Murphy was revealed on this site months ago, but the obfuscation and merging of reserved and devolved issues has reached a fever pitch. The recent manifesto launch was the culmination of months of misinformation and resulted in 10 pledges, 50% of which simply could not be implemented without Labour being in power in both Westminster and Holyrood.

http://www.politicsscotland.scot/home/opinion/

Above is the last few months of Scottish politics in a nutshell. I don't think many are swayed much by 'reports' or 'black holes' after the referendum. There aren't many who trust them anymore, or at least, those who report them as fact. Nor the over blown narrative and media coverage surrounding a completely 'dead policy'. Is a waste of time no matter how much Hamish posts about it am afraid. It's just a stick to beat the SNP with on the campaign trail. I engaged with plenty of numbers during the ref on threads like these. But at least that was a possibility after Sept ! FFA is very much an unknown, and not even in the ballpark at the moment.