Salmond and Sturgeon Want the English Fish for More Fat Subsidies

Shakethedisease

HAMISH_MCTAVISH wrote: »

How well has that worked out for Greece? :eek:

Leanne, I'll try to keep this simple for you....

Imagine you worked very hard for a living, but you still spent 25% more than you earned every month, like Scotland does.

But unlike Scotland, who has a much richer relative to subsidise their living expenses, you had to go out and borrow the difference to survive.

The first month, you might be able to put it on a credit card. The second month you might be able to extend your overdraft. The third month, you might get another credit card. But pretty soon the bank and card companies would see how much debt you had taken on and raise your interest rates to discourage you from overborrowing.

Then you'd find yourself struggling to pay the interest and still survive.... and then they'd stop lending you more money.

And shortly thereafter you'd find the only place left that would lend you money would be Wonga.... Or if you were Scotland, the IMF, on similarly harsh conditions.

That's the reality.

No, it's your reality. Many others disagree with you on the economics. The case for FFA and independence has gone well beyond comparisons with Greece and Ireland. In fact it's gone well beyond simple economics. And is now primarily political.

What happens in the next few weeks will dictate more what happens re FFA/independence stakes than any economics argument. Since you are so fond of Greece, then you only have to see what's happening there. The new politics there is dictating the economics of Europe. With a Grexit on the cards once again. And the people there voted for this and it's consequences in full knowledge of what might happen. Anything but the status quo.

Perceived economic risks are what lost the referendum by and large. However, the perfect storm of the SNP rise and the collapse of a two party system of majority governments in power.. may see political changes that will negate all economic ones. Especially the way the media narrative is whipping up and making the SNP into pariah's in England/Westminster. One article in the Guardian tonight said :-

One senior Labour figure fears “civil disobedience” if the SNP accrues too much power over the English. For now, such a prospect is surely remote. But in how many elections are such fears even voiced? So much more is at stake this time than who gets to walk into No 10.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/mar/22/snp-tartan-labour-election-scotland

Now that's going to be a big problem if 45% of Scots in a General Election vote SNP isn't it ? It's all about the politics at the moment...the economics can wait. What is becoming clear to an awful lot of people though.. including staunch unionist's like Alex Massie and Hugo Rifkind.. is that the Union doesn't mean much to many people who said it did barely a few months ago. That doesn't bode well does it...

Yes, your English Tory will talk the unionist talk, but press him on it — I am belatedly realising — and you will discover that the only Union they’re really interested in is one that has no impact upon them whatsoever. Remember all those decades when there was a Tory PM and almost no Scottish Tory MPs? Remember the way they’d shrug and explain that this was just how a Union works, and that the reverse could as easily be true? Call me a mug, but I actually thought they meant it. They don’t want a partner, these people, but a pet.

http://www.spectator.co.uk/columnists/hugo-rifkind/9472772/the-real-threat-to-britain-and-its-not-the-snp/?prefermobile

Leanne1812

Cheers for keeping it simple Hamish.

It might seem like a good tactic to try and belittle me, it makes me feel you're not entirely convinced by your own argument.

No matter :-)

Your long drawn out posts still did nothing to convince me Scotland isn't holding her own.

HAMISH_MCTAVISH

Leanne1812 wrote: »

If I do the maths I can't get 1/7 (Gen) and 25% (Ham) to be the same. Someone has got the maths wrong.

Who is it?

Neither.

1/7th was the Scottish deficit pre oil price plunge.

1/4 is the Scottish deficit now....

Could the billions of subsidy also be wrong?

Nope.

HAMISH_MCTAVISH

Shakethedisease wrote: »

No, it's your reality. Many others disagree with you on the economics.

Not even the SNP disagree with me on the deficit.

We are, after all, using the SNP controlled Scottish government's very own figures.

Since you are so fond of Greece, then you only have to see what's happening there. The new politics there is dictating the economics of Europe.

All that has happened there is the Greeks elected a far left government, much like the SNP, that made empty promises to end Austerity.

The markets and EU have told them to 'jog on' and 'do one'.

And Syriza has gone skulking back to Athens with their tail between their legs. Sure, they'll bark, and growl, and bark some more, but they won't dare bite the hand that feeds them.

That is the economic reality that Greece faces, and no political spin, or firebrand politician, can change that.

Scotland faces the same reality....

HAMISH_MCTAVISH

Leanne1812 wrote: »

Your long drawn out posts still did nothing to convince me Scotland isn't holding her own.

I suspect Alex Salmond himself couldn't convince you of that.:)

Shakethedisease

HAMISH_MCTAVISH wrote: »

Not even the SNP disagree with me on the deficit.

We are, after all, using the SNP controlled Scottish government's very own figures.

All that has happened there is the Greeks elected a far left government, much like the SNP, that made empty promises to end Austerity.

The markets and EU have told them to 'jog on' and 'do one'.

And Syriza has gone skulking back to Athens with their tail between their legs. Sure, they'll bark, and growl, and bark some more, but they won't dare bite the hand that feeds them.

That is the economic reality that Greece faces, and no political spin, or firebrand politician, can change that.

Scotland faces the same reality....

The UK's robust third quarter economic growth has been confirmed at 0.7 per cent, but the breakdown out today has revealed that government spending and private consumption were the main drivers, even as exports and investments fell sharply.
Private consumption expanded 0.8 per cent in the three months through September – compared to expectations of 0.6 per cent – and imports grew 1.4 per cent, compared to forecasts of 0.7 per cent.
However, the biggest surprise was government spending, which rose 1.1 per cent in the quarter, compared to the economists forecasts for a 0.2 per cent reading, and going some way towards explaining why government borrowing continues to rise despite the economic recovery.

http://www.ft.com/fastft/241812/uk-growth-buttressed-government-spending

Well it's not so rosy in the garden UK wise either is it, despite what Osborne has to say.

And what the Greeks do re the EU isn't really my point. It was that they voted Syrzia in anyway despite the economic arguments. And that it may be Westminster itself that pushes Scotland out, because of how unpalatable it may for a lot of English voters to have the SNP holding the balance of power. Or in fact, anywhere near Westminster in the numbers the polls predict ( I think a wipe-out is unlikely myself )...

What I'm trying to get across is that economics isn't the biggest player in the game at the moment. It's Westminster.. and any horse trading that goes on once the votes are in. Generali has stated on several occasions, as have many others here and on other boards/below the line commentary.. also Anna Soubury today on Andrew Marr.. That they wouldn't consider the SNP in power as 'democratic'. I totally disagree with that, however, if it is the view of the majority south of the border. Then politics and the people will decide what happens next.

They may just rather cut Scotland loose. One way or another. I think the Tories might be quite keen actually. And for all your facts and figures.. I'm afraid that's the political reality of it for you. A lot of English voters don't want the SNP in Westminster in large numbers having a say in things. A lot of Scottish voters seem to be indicating that they do.

That's your problem right there, especially if the media continue on as they are. Not the economics.

Generali

I don't think England/Britain can simply 'cut Scotland loose'. There is no mechanism to do so.

Shakethedisease

Generali wrote: »

I don't think England/Britain can simply 'cut Scotland loose'. There is no mechanism to do so.

Politics is the art of the possible. There is no mechanism YET to do so. If English voters want it en masse rather than see the SNP in Westminster, then that's exactly what will happen.

Other than that, it's suck it up, and accept Alex Salmond and 30 or 40 SNP MP's having a real say in Westminster on a day to day political basis. At the moment the media and the Tory party are going all out at a real rate of knots to paint this as a really, really bad thing to happen.

'Terrifying' Salmond says he will write Labour's first budget as the price of propping up Miliband in Number 10'...

Former Scottish First Minister said the SNP would hold all 'the power'
He said the SNP would force Labour to abandon austerity after the election
Would mean billions of pounds of extra borrowing for spending splurge

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3006425/Terrifying-Salmond-says-write-Labour-s-budget-price-propping-Miliband-Number-10.html

Now this imo isn't exactly a fair reflection of the interview I and thousands of others watched this morning. But this is very typical of the the way things are being presented to English readers who haven't watched it, and may not be the most politically engaged. 'Terrifying' ? And what's more, it's really solidifying SNP support up here.. while demonising Salmond, and SNP MP's in England ( naturally this won't be in the Scottish Daily Mail ). Even Guardian readers are proclaiming the demise of the Labour party if they have anything to do with the SNP.

We'll have to see how the arithmetic plays out in May. But, if the SNP are in.. then there are going to be a lot of folks in England not happy about it at all due to constant bombardment with articles and tv such as the above. Am not sure it's all going to end in a happy Union.... The Tories and their newspaper/media support, are going to kill it off for a chance to remain in power. I hope the vids of Salmond and a dancing Milliband are all worth it in the end. Because up here, they're simply cementing the idea that Scots votes aren't welcome democratically anymore in Westminster.

Generali

This may or may not be news to you STD but Labour and Tories from Scotland are very welcome in London. Many PMs and senior cabinet ministers have been Scottish down the years including 2 of the last 3 Chancellors of the Exchequer.

When Scotland sends Nationalists with a narrow remit to support only the Scottish part of the Union, it is natural for England, Irish and Welsh voters to view them with cynicism.

Tromking

Shakethedisease wrote: »

No, it's your reality. Many others disagree with you on the economics. The case for FFA and independence has gone well beyond comparisons with Greece and Ireland. In fact it's gone well beyond simple economics. And is now primarily political.

Made I laugh!:rotfl:
Hamish demolishes yours and others child like case for an economically viable independent Scotland, so you simply move the emphasis to something else!
You've got it bad!