legion group no popla number

hoohoo

No harm in adding your photos. Sometimes the POPLA assessors do like a little excursion from the boredom of GPEOL.

Coupon-mad

toddstar wrote: »

time to update my thread: 05/01/15 i received a response to my email complaint from the bpa as follows:

"I have contacted the operator and they have advised they have sent out a further letter which will contain your POPLA verification code.

This has been sent out by first class post. However, I have also provided you with a copy in the attached.

In view of the above, this will allow you the 28 days to appeal to POPLA.

Thank you for bringing this matter to my attention."

as it says, there was a pdf document attached showing me what legion group had mailed out that same day and i did receive it in the post the following day 06/01/15.

here is the letter i received from legion group:

"Thank you for your email received 31st December 2014.

This came in response to a letter sent by Legion Group dated the 24th December 2014.

We acknowledge that we omitted to provide you with the POPLA code requested. Please find this information enclosed with this letter."

now i have my popla code

i am going to put together my popla appeal and post it here for feedback before i file it on the popla website.

i just have a couple of questions that will help me put my appeal together please:

on the popla appeal form there are four boxes i can tick for the reasons for my appeal, do i just tick the one box that says "I am not liable for the parking charge"?

i also have pictures of the car park showing how poor the signage is (and it is poor), do i even need them?

i'll start work on my popla appeal letter...

Yes add pics as 'evidence' right after submitting appeal wording as keeper only. Just as long as you realise what to include in a winning POPLA appeal about 'no initial loss', no GPEOL, no contract with landowner, unclear signage, and 'no keeper liability as the NTK is pants'. As per the examples in post #3 of the NEWBIES thread 'How to win at POPLA'.

toddstar

thanks guys for the advice to my previous post. I've drawn up my popla appeal, would the experts be able to advise please if I have missed anything or worded anything incorrectly? i'm gonna send in my photos as evidence of the poor signage when I submit my appeal online. here's my first draft:

Dear POPLA,
I am the registered keeper & this is my appeal:

1) The Charge is not a genuine pre-estimate of loss
The charge of £40 levied for ‘your vehicle was not parked in a designated parking space’ is punitive and unreasonable, contravening the British Parking Association’s Code of Practice section 19.

The BPA Code of Practice clause 19.5 states:

“If the parking charge that the driver is being asked to pay is for a breach of contract or act of trespass, this charge must be proportionate and commercially justifiable.“

This is followed by clause 19.6 which states:

“If your parking charge is based upon a contractually agreed sum, that charge cannot be punitive or unreasonable.“

The BPA Code of Practice requires that if a parking charge is for an alleged breach of contract then it must prove to be a genuine pre-estimate of loss flowing from the incident. This cannot be a subsequently devised statement as this would not be a pre-estimate. The Appellant requests that Legion Group provides a detailed breakdown of how the amount of the charge was calculated in the form of documented, specific evidence applicable to this car park and this alleged incident. According to previous POPLA adjudications and Court rulings, running costs, such as erecting signage, wages, uniform and office costs may not be included in the calculations as they would have occurred whether a breach occurred or not.

Given that Legion Group apparently charge the same lump sum for parking outside the marked lines of a bay as they would an overstay, and the same fixed charge applies to any alleged contravention (whether serious and damaging or trifling), it is clear there has been no regard paid to establishing that this charge is a genuine pre-estimate of loss caused by this alleged breach of contract by Legion Group.

2) Lack of signage - no contract with driver
There is no entrance sign. Signs within are poorly positioned and unlit, so that in darkness signs are not clearly visible and the words are unreadable. These signs breach the BPA CoP Appendix B which effectively renders them unable to form a contract with a driver in the hours of darkness: ''Signs should be readable and understandable at all times, including during the hours of darkness…''. I put Legion Group to strict proof otherwise; as well as a site map they must show photos in darkness taken without a camera flash. A Notice is not imported into the contract unless brought home so prominently that the party 'must' have known of it and agreed terms. The driver did not see any sign; there was no consideration/acceptance and no contract agreed between the parties.

3) Lack of standing/authority from landowner
Legion Group has no title in this land and no BPA compliant landowner contract assigning rights to charge and enforce in the courts in their own right.

BPA CoP paragraphs 7.1 & 7.2 dictate some of the required contract wording. I put Legion Group to strict proof of the contract terms with the actual landowner (not a lessee or agent). Legion Group have no legal status to enforce this charge because there is no assignment of rights to pursue PCNs in the courts in their own name nor standing to form contracts with drivers themselves. They do not own this car park and appear (at best) to have a bare licence to put signs up and 'ticket' vehicles on site, merely acting as agents. No evidence has been supplied lawfully showing that Legion Group are entitled to pursue these charges in their own right.

I require Legion Group to provide a full copy of the contemporaneous, signed & dated (unredacted) contract with the landowner. I say that any contract is not compliant with the requirements set out in the BPA Code of Practice and does not allow them to charge and issue proceedings for this sum for this alleged contravention in this car park. In order to refute this it will not be sufficient for the Operator merely to supply a site agreement or witness statement, as these do not show sufficient detail (such as the restrictions, charges and revenue sharing arrangements agreed with a landowner) and may well be signed by a non-landholder such as another agent. In order to comply with paragraph 7 of the BPA Code of Practice, a non-landowner private parking company must have a specifically-worded contract with the landowner - not merely an 'agreement' with a non-landholder managing agent - otherwise there is no authority.

4) Non compliant Notice to Keeper - no keeper liability established under POFA2 2012
On the NTK, the 'period of parking' is not shown, only the time of issue of an alleged PCN making this a non-compliant NTK under the POFA 2012, Schedule 4.

Schedule 4 para8(1): "A notice which is to be relied on as a {NTK is given} if the following requirements are met. (2)The notice must—
(a)specify the vehicle, the relevant land on which it was parked and the period of parking to which the notice relates."

The NTK is a nullity so no keeper liability exists.

5) Non compliant Appeal Rejection – Breach of BPA Code of Practice
On the letter of Appeal Rejection, Legion Group shows its complete disregard for the BPA Code of Practice and the POPLA appeals process by deliberately trying to mislead the Appellant into paying £15 to formally close this case. Legion Group fails to mention POPLA and the Appellants right to appeal. This behaviour is in breach of the BPA Code of Practice: “Section 22 Complaints, challenges and appeals - Operator Procedures - 22.12 If you reject an appeal you must tell the motorist how to make an appeal to POPLA. This includes providing a template ‘notice of appeal’ form or a link to the appropriate website for lodging an appeal and a valid 10-digit verification code. Even if the verification code is automatically printed on an enclosed appeal form, it must still be in a prominent position on the first page of the rejection letter.”

It was only as a result of complaining to the BPA that Legion Group decided to provide the Appellant with a POPLA verification code.

6) Unreasonable/Unfair Terms
The charge that was levied is an unfair term (and therefore not binding) pursuant to the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999. The OFT on UTCCR 1999, in regard to Group 18(a): unfair financial burdens, states:

"18.1.3 Objections are less likely...if a term is specific and transparent as to what must be paid and in what circumstances."

A poorly placed and unlit sign of terms is far from 'transparent'.

Schedule 2 of those Regulations gives an indicative (and non-exhaustive) list of terms which may be regarded as unfair and includes at Schedule 2(1)(e) "Terms which have the object or effect of requiring any consumer who fails to fulfil his obligation to pay a disproportionately high sum in compensation."

Furthermore, Regulation 5(1) states that: "A contractual term which has not been individually negotiated shall be regarded as unfair if, contrary to the requirement of good faith, it causes a significant imbalance in the parties' rights and obligations arising under the contract, to the detriment of the consumer".

The charge that was levied is an unreasonable indemnity clause pursuant to section 4(1) of the Unfair Contract Terms Act 1977 which provides that: "A person cannot by reference to any contract term be made to indemnify another person (whether a party to the contract or not) in respect of liability that may be incurred by the other for negligence or breach of contract, except in so far as the contract term satisfies the requirement of reasonableness.”

I contend it is wholly unreasonable to rely on poorly placed and unlit signs in an attempt to profit by charging a disproportionate sum where no loss has been caused by a car parking in a car park in a ‘so called’ undesignated parking space. I put Legion Group to strict proof to justify that their charge, under the circumstances described, does not cause a significant imbalance to my detriment and to justify that the charge does not breach the UTCCRs and UCT Act.

I therefore respectfully request that my appeal is upheld and the charge is dismissed.

toddstar

evenin all, just wondering if my popla appeal letter in my previous post looks ok? should I make any changes or does it look ok to submit?

Coupon-mad

Looks OK after my skim-reading but see if others can check too. I assume it was dark when the driver parked, then?

I did wonder, surely the full PCN isn't 'only' £40 is it?

MalcG_2

Hi
I have just had a parking ticket from LegionGroup as well. I was parking on a side road by Russells Hall Hospital in Dudley. I got there at 15:45, and returned to the car at 16:20. I wasnt parked on any yellow or red lines. I wasnt blocking anyone in. There were red lines across the other side of the road but not on mine. There was a sign about the red route but that was about 60 yards further up. Behind a fence on the hospital grounds there was a sign saying permit holders only, but I was the other side of the fence. On the ticket they have ticked 'failure to display a valid P & D ticket or permit'. They have put the time as I arrived at 15:20 and left 15:05 which takes some doing. I was at my grandsons school at 15:20 with my daughter which the teacher could confirm. I checked the car in front and behind and they had no permit that I could see. How do I stand with this?
Thanks in advance
Malc

Ralph-y

please read the newbies thread

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/4816822

which will explain all including to start your own thread

Ralph:cool:

toddstar

Coupon-mad wrote: »

I did wonder, surely the full PCN isn't 'only' £40 is it?

sorry coupon-mad, just realised after all this time that I didn't answer your questions, no it wasn't dark, I changed my appeal to suit. yeah full amount is £40 or £20 if I had paid within 14 days.

toddstar

the 28 days has well expired since popla acknowledged receipt of my appeal. I haven't received any evidence pack from the ppc so does that mean they never submitted one and that I will win by default?

Ralph-y

Did popla ever give you a appeal hearing date?

Ralph:cool: