Can't see the wood for the trees!!!!!

boredaccountant

I thought I was a clever chap but have never been quite so confused in all my life. I spent a few hours Saturday reading 'Newbie' threads and most of this morning using the search facility in fear of inconveniencing someone on these forums

I have a letter from DRP and as far as I can tell it is 'not' important (QuoteCoupon-mad)

Do I act on it or not please?

The parking ticket was given Saturday 6 Sept 2014 at a services somewhere on my way up North. It was issued by CP Plus and I only have one document from them (must have binned the others!!). It is a 'Notification of Liability'.

Should I be appealing to them initially and then telling the Debt Collector to go away as directed:

“If you have letters from Debt Recovery Plus, and are on the face of it, too late to ‘appeal’, then (if in England/Wales) appeal anyway to the PPC! And as for the DC, either ignore them or robustly respond”

Appreciate your help guys. If I need to appeal what do I send and how?

I need to go and do some Christmas shopping this month and this is doing my head in. Will make sure I park properly next time!!

Thanks

Redx

you do as it says, either ignore or robustly respond telling them to FRO and refer back to the creditor

personally, I would ignore the debt collectors completely, bearing in mind this postal tennis can go on for 6 years (due to small claims court statutes)

if you are going to send a letter, send the template letter to the creditor (the PPC)

Dublindel

Write back and deny the debt. Demand court papers to resolve this matter. That should be end of the matter unless they are really stupid.

boredaccountant

Hi Redx

Many thanks for your reply.

I am happy to ignore the Debt Collector. Will not waste time with them.

However, I am a unclear as to my next course of action with CP Plus. I wouldn't like to call them a creditor as I don't actually owe them any money!

You say 'if' I am going to send a letter:

Therefore I have 2 options

1) I do (appeal)

2) I don't bother (effectively ignore)

I want to follow the correct procedure to get these people off my back.

Look forward to some clarification

Many thanks

Redx

you appeal to the PPC using the template letter, where they may or should clarify the alleged "debt" (which a creditor should do)

you may disagree with this alleged "debt" , thats your choice, in which case ignore them unless they send you an LBC or an MCOL

DRP cannot do anything so either ignore or respond , deny the debt and refer them back to the creditor CPP , they are the ones using POFA 2012 to try to make you liable for an alleged debt due to an alleged transgression

I am sure you have dealt with invoices and alleged debts, well that is what is happening here, and as RK they are trying to make you liable for a perceived debt , one that you deny owing , so they passed it to debt collectors to chase this alleged debt and try to bully you into paying it before the 6 year statute runs out

if necessary , fight them in court , if it gets that far, after 6 years it wont matter , but for 6 years either or both may pursue you so expect many more postal demands , especially from DRP (or one of their subsidiaries)

I would ignore the lot , and only deal with an LBC or any MCOL claims/letters , but by responding to the PPC you have evidence in case it went to court that you tried to clarify and settle the matter

boredaccountant

Is this the template I should use?

Date


Dear Sirs

Re: PCN No. ....................

I challenge this 'PCN' as keeper of the car, on these main grounds:

a). The sum does not represent a genuine pre-estimate of loss, nor is it a core price term. It is a disguised penalty and not commercially justified.
b). As keeper I believe that the signs were not seen, the wording is ambiguous and the predominant purpose of your business model is intended to be a deterrent.
c). There is no evidence that you have any proprietary interest in the land.
d). Your 'Notice' fails to comply with the POFA 2012 and breaches various consumer contract/unfair terms Regulations.
e). There was no consideration nor acceptance flowing from both parties and any contract with myself, or the driver, is denied.
f). This is not a 'parking ticket' - it is an unsolicited invoice with as much merit as the publicly-derided £100 taken unlawfully from customers by a dingy Blackpool Hotel.

Your clients should be thoroughly ashamed of the shoddy way you treat consumers visiting their premises. The landowner will be made fully aware of this matter and your response, which I will forward to their CEO when I complain in writing and via social media, as appropriate.

Parking firms like yours fail to demonstrate even a basic understanding of customer service. The reputation of your business model appears to be more akin to a protection racket than 'parking management'. Your ATA may offer sound-bites about driving up standards or fight for motorists' rights but in reality they are not a regulator; they merely exist to represent the interests of paying members, in order to gain access to DVLA data. The public have no faith in the private parking industry and, as far as I have seen, your firm has not shown itself to be any different than the ex-clampers with whom you share a membership.

The purpose of this communication is:

1. Formal challenge
There will be no admissions as to who was driving and no assumptions can be drawn. As such, you must either rely on the POFA 2012 or cancel the charge. I suggest you uphold this challenge now or alternatively, send a rejection letter - subject to accepting my claim for costs as clearly stated below, since you have no case.

2. ''Drop hands'' offer
The extravagant 'parking charge' is baseless but I realise that you may have incurred nominal postage costs. Equally, I have incurred costs to date, for researching the law and responding to your junk mail dressed up to impersonate a parking ticket. It is clear that my costs and yours, at this point, do not exceed £15. Therefore, this is a formal “drop hands” offer. I remind you of the duty to mitigate any loss, so withdraw the spurious charge within 35 days without further expense and I will not pursue you for my costs. If you persist then I will charge in full for my time at £18 per hour plus my out-of-pocket expenses and damages for harassment.

3. Notice of cancellation of contract
I hereby give notice of withdrawal from this alleged 'contract' which was never properly offered by you and certainly was not expressly agreed. This 'contract' is hereby cancelled and any obligations now end. If you offer - and if I decide to use - IAS or POPLA, then the contract ends immediately on the date of their decision (whatever the outcome) so my notice of cancellation still applies. The Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation & Additional Payments) Regulations apply now to every consumer contract, save for a few exemptions, which parking contracts are not. It is the will of Parliament following the EU Consumer Rights Directive, that express consent is obtained for consumer contracts now - not implied consent - and that information is provided in a durable medium in advance.

You have failed to meet these requirements. The foisting of unexpected contracts like this on consumers, by stealth, is a thing of the past.

By replying to the challenge you are acknowledging receipt and acceptance of points 2 and 3 above. If you decide to persist with this unwarranted threat, I will be put to unnecessary expense and hours of time in appealing or defending this matter. As such, you will be liable for my costs and a pre-estimate of my loss - and in contrast with yours, mine is genuine - is that this sum will be likely to exceed £100.

I have kept proof of submission of this challenge. I look forward to your considered reply within 35 days.

Yours faithfully,


{the registered keeper's name}

boredaccountant

OR is something like this of equal effect:

Dear Sir

Ref ****

I wish to appeal this notice and refer you to the consequences of Halsey v Milton Keynes General NHS Trust if you refuse to consider an application outside your normal deadline.

1 There are no signs in the car park stating that a motorcycle may not park in a normal bay

2 The amount you claim does not represent a genuine pre-estimate of any loss

If you do not accept this challenge, I require the validation code to refer the matter to POPLA
I will require you to produce the contract that you claim has resulted in a payment of £100 by you to the land-owner.

Yours faithfully

boredaccountant

Letter to Debt collector:

Dear Sir

Ref : ****

I deny any debt to XXXX

Refer it back to your client and don't contact me again

Yours faithfully

Coupon-mad

If you like, but it's pointless. I favour ignoring debt collectors as they are just a powerless letter-writing middle-men with the powers of a gnat. DRP are NOT IMPORTANT and you are wasting your time really. We have laughed at this letter chain for years and years:

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/3829727

Always complain to the landowner - if this was Moto they do cancel when people say they stopped to take a nap for safety's sake on a long journey:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/news/8784988/Tired-driver-hit-with-fine-for-taking-a-nap.html
A spokesman for Moto:
“Now that the circumstances surrounding Mr Orr’s penalty have been brought to our attention it will be rescinded under our policy of not charging drivers who have taken a nap for reasons of safety.”

boredaccountant

Thanks for your input.

I am still unsure as to my next course of action.

I hope this thread helps others in a similar situation.

The forums strongly suggest that 'you do not pay' but 'you do not ignore'. This implies actually doing something.

I am trying to find out what I need to do.....

1) ignore debt collector. Ok

2) do I write to CP Plus with the appeal? If so the really long template letter or is the short brief, to the point one sufficient.

3) do I also write to the landowner? It was MOTO in Wetherby on A1(M).

Hope I am not time wasting. Just want to put this to bed. Really appreciate your understanding.

Thanks

Umkomaas

There's no harm to your case in appealing to the PPC, but all they want is your money and as this is now approaching 3 months old, why would they even bother to reply with anything to help you or with anything that won't help them? Use any appeal format you think fit - I don't think any of them, at this stage, will suddenly change things to your advantage. But the NEWBIES sticky appeal has been carefully crafted - and it's just a copy and paste job, anyway.

The strong theme throughout the forum is to ignore DCs - they are powerless, can't send the boys around to turn up on your doorstep, and can't issue court papers - don't waste any more time on them. Any correspondence from them, just retain safely for up to 6 years.

At this (late) stage your efforts must be put into complaints to MOTO. If you either don't want to do this, or your efforts with them prove fruitless, you have only two options left:

1. Pay, and it goes away
2. Ignore and it (probably) goes away - eventually.

We have no other 'magic bullets' left for you - unless, in the highly unlikely circumstances, the PPC is 'daft' enough to send you a POPLA code.