Pizza Hut Parking Charge Notice

RobinHill

How would I know how many times you have seen a CEL NtK, and perhaps how often they may change it? Trusting your experience I am happy to follow your advice. I was just clarifying the fact that the notice has not yet been issued to us as such, and in addition that we may not have seen the full wording. I will send them our address and reply as per your instruction. Thank you.

Coupon-mad

Yep sounds good and - sorry! - I didn't mean the above post to sound as harsh as it reads! I just meant, we know for sure that it's not compliant and that the POFA wording isn't on the back.

RobinHill

Hello again, Just FYI ...

Despite CEL being supplied with my details (as instructed to do so on the original notice) Europcar have received a letter from CEL dated 10/12/2014. It states "We refer to your letter and have considered the matters raised" etc, it also includes a POPLA code. I have asked that Europcar reply re-iterating that they have supplied the hirer's details and that the original notice should be re-issued to us.

Thank you.

Umkomaas

Strongly worded complaint to Steve Clark at the BPA and to the DVLA - email addies in the NEWBIES FAQ sticky, post #6.

Parking Prankster has just blogged on a similar situation with RAME Charity and PPS - you might draw some inspiration/ideas from reading and following links there.

http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co.uk/2014/12/have-dvla-learnt-lessons-from-rame.html

RobinHill

Cheers Coupon-mad,

Just wanted to try and make sure the situation so far is clear before we petition POPLA as this seems a bit of an odd carry on ...

We haven't received anything from CEL yet, all the correspondence has been to Europcar. If the procedure was followed correctly we may not even know about the charge yet.

The copy of the original charge notice sent to us by Europcar had the small print at the bottom of the page is truncated. CEL's letter (dated 10/12/2014) to Europcar refers to a failed appeal by Europcar, even though they haven't appealed. Europcar simply forwarded my details as instructed by the charge notice.

I understood that we needed the charge notice so that we could then formally appeal? I would have thought that the notice needs to be issued to ourselves before we can do so? At that point we intended to raise the POFA 2012, and the "damages" / "contractual sum" topics in our appeal. I seem to recall reading on this site that it is necessary to do this in the appeal before it goes to POPLA ie. it is no good raising these points to POPLA if they were not part of the original appeal?

Please confirm that we should now go straight to POPLA.

Thank you.

RobinHill

Hi Coupon-mad, I in the process of preparing the POPLA appeal, but could do with some help please. Apologies but having tried to read at length and I am a touch confused with the hire co. / driver / PoFA topics.

There is an appeal template on your post dated 01-05-2014 which I am trying to use.

p=65410407#post65410407 (apologies MSE won't let me post links).

I understand that Europcar have supplied my details (as the hirer) to CEL. However I am not sure how to use #3 POFA 2012 as the regstered keeper is Europcar. Best I can understand Europcar need to identify the "driver". How can they do that as they only know the hirer? Does this not then leave Europcar liable in not being able to identify the driver, or is it assumed to be one and the same for this purpose? If not is it then our focus that CEL need to identify who was driving the vehicle at the date in question?

On another point, the charge notice incident date is 18/10/2014 and issue date 31/10/2014. The schedule attached below describes the time limits for "delivery" of the notice. Given an issue date of the 31/10 and paying attention to "have been delivered on the second working day after posting (assuming 31st at the earliest)". This takes us to the 04/11 which is 17 days from the 18/11. Does this mean the notice was delivered after the duration permitted?

Thank you

Schedule 4 paragraphs 8(5) or 9(5) specify the time limits for serving a Notice to Keeper. If this is not complied with then the registered keeper cannot be held to account for the alleged debt of the driver.

A Notice to Keeper can be served by ordinary post and the Protection of Freedoms Act requires that the Notice, to be valid, must be delivered either

(Where a notice to driver (parking ticket) has been served) Not earlier than 28 days after, nor more than 56 days after, the service of that notice to driver; or
(Where no notice to driver has been served (e.g ANPR is used)) Not later than 14 days after the vehicle was parked
A notice sent by post is to be presumed, unless the contrary is proved, to have been delivered on the second working day after the day on which it is posted; and for this purpose “working day” means any day other than a Saturday, Sunday or a public holiday in England and Wales.

RobinHill

Is it appropriate to raise the topic of as a disabled person (Blue Badge / higher rate DLA) and their carer not being allowed any additional consideration to that of the able bodied. In particular given the extra time it takes to leave the car, dine, and return in order to leave the car park. Would this be viewed simply as mitigation"? I would trust not given the protection afforded under the DDA.

The charge is for overstay of 17 mins. (permitted 2 hours free). Noting the receipt and ANPR exit time it took 17 mins to depart alone not withstanding any entry time of around 10 minutes.

hoohoo

It is entirely appropriate to quote this.

There was one popla case where an elderly gentleman parked at the range needed a long time to park, get to the range, find it was closed, then leave. This was allowed by POPLA on the grounds that being elderly is was appropriate to give hime more time to do this.

There was another case in the court where parking was defined as the time spent actually parked; not the time you actually enter and leave the car park. This case the car drove around for 31 minutes then left without being able to park.

So it would be reasonable to allow you extra time to leave the car, because you can only agree to terms and conditions once you are parked, have left the car, and gone and read the signage. it is also reasonable to allow extra time to leave the car park.

Coupon-mad

RobinHill wrote: »

I understood that we needed the charge notice so that we could then formally appeal? I would have thought that the notice needs to be issued to ourselves before we can do so?

Please confirm that we should now go straight to POPLA.

Yes - DO NOT wait for another notice - go straight to POPLA using the code issued to Europcar, and say at the start that the Notice and POPLA code has been passed to you, as you were the hirer and so this meets the definition of 'keeper' in the POFA 2012. However the driver has not been identified. Then continue with the usual stuff!

At that point we intended to raise the POFA 2012, and the "damages" / "contractual sum" topics in our appeal. I seem to recall reading on this site that it is necessary to do this in the appeal before it goes to POPLA ie. it is no good raising these points to POPLA if they were not part of the original appeal?

No that's not the case at all, you can add all you like into a POPLA appeal. Write as keeper, having explained that you were the hirer. Please show us your draft.

RobinHill

Cheers Coupon-mad, that clears up my main concern over the hire co. legalities.

The POPLA appeal by you (CEL topic post 4895330) that I was aiming to use as a template is dated 25/02/2014. Is this ok or do I need to try and find a more recent one?

Can you comment as to the merit of my notes re. Disabled and also Time-limit for notice delivery.

Thanks again, note don't think that I could manage this on my own. There's no question of not showing you the draft!!