Advice about solving noise urgently needed

atrixblue.-MFR-.

MJ sorry to hear you have issues with your HA.


Noise can make life living hell.


I know I suffered 18 months of pure bass and drunken parties non stop every night by a drunken abusive neighbor.


TBH I think you've been fighting the wrong cause.


Enviromental health are correct in that they cannot enforce noise abatement against children. its been tried and tested within the courts in past and the outcome are always the same they don't get anywhere as children will act impulsively and they have a freedom to play as its their fundamental human right.


But I will say this you have a fundamental right to live in peace, although the HA are well the noise is coming from children nothing we can do, they are still obligated to investigate WHY there is so much noise travel within the building to all floors.


change your tactic from neighbors causing the noise to the noise travel in the building is not of an acceptable standard that you cant live in peace and quiet.


place a microphone recorder in the living room and bedroom, record the noise multiple times a day for 14 days, then ask your HA to come to house with a area manager and buildings surveyor (yes they should have both of these people in their department), and play it for them.


tell them that due to the noise levels being carried through all floors of the building you suspect that the cavity sound deadening insulation in the ceiling has failed, or there is not enough.


youre goal I getting them to agree that they should get in the cavity with a borescope to find the issue, form there, put them on notice that if they find the failures, they are to correct them, even if that means paying for you to stay in a hotel whilst the work is carried out.


now whether you wish to back yourself up and have a specialist come in at the same time they are looking into the cavity with the scope, to confirm or not confirm any failures or problems is upto you, but it helped that I had an uncle 30yrs in the building trade come out to my house when my HA surveyor came out to inspect a water ingress into kitchen above a lintel, and damp all over the west facing wall, I had numerous issues with damp and wate ringress and the HA for years blamed cavity wall insulation failure in which they removed the beads, but it got worse over time, HA was stonewalling me with give it time to dry out, when my uncle told them that in his experience of building, and inspecting issues like this theres more often than not a blockage in the cavity that has punctured the water proofing cavity tray and now is rusting the lintel and water is pouring back to the inner skin of the brock work, and with that said to him as I instroduced my uncle as a builder, the next day the took some bricks out and low and behold concrete ontop of the DPC tray puncturing it, water built up in the cavity and poured in through the internal brick work.


without my uncle nothing would have been done!.


but I would have 2 people with knowledge about noise and sound deading come out to investigate the noise travel, 1 being the HA and 1 being your independent.


I would not spend a penny on what the HA are responsible for.


go through you HA tenants handbook, look at their terms and conditions of maintenance, standards of living, and noise aboutment, and quote them directly at them in a letter or email.


but I would now change tactics going from the children making the noise to the poor standard of sound deadening and why its happening and get your neighbors do the same.


that all the advice I can come up with and I hope this helps.

MJK4711

Thanks Atrixblue. That's really good advice.

I have tried to record the sound but because it is "impact" rather than airborne it doesn't sound as bad on the recording.

I was thinking of getting an independent sound test done but I was quoted £400.

It may well be that the insulation is up to British Standards and is just not enough ?? I'm then thinking that £400 could go towards the cost of improving it.

If it was to British Standard should I be hearing it to the extent that I do? I also hear a clanking sound as they walk across their floors which I've been told could be that there is a problem with the joists or maybe the resilient bars have not been installed correctly?

Also when their washing machine is on the pictures on my wall rattle aswell as my lounge door when it is closed.

Is this normal for insulation and an acoustic system, which according to my Housing Association is above British Standard?

It all points towards a structural problem as my ground floor neighbours are having the same issues with the teenage couple above them. Even if it is to British Standard it is not enough to separate 2 families, especially when there are young children involved who are running about and jumping off of furniture all the time.

Thanks for the advice. I'm going to write to my Housing Association again on Monday.

atrixblue.-MFR-.

MJK4711 wrote: »

Thanks Atrixblue. That's really good advice.

I have tried to record the sound but because it is "impact" rather than airborne it doesn't sound as bad on the recording.

I was thinking of getting an independent sound test done but I was quoted £400.

It may well be that the insulation is up to British Standards and is just not enough ?? I'm then thinking that £400 could go towards the cost of improving it.

If it was to British Standard should I be hearing it to the extent that I do? I also hear a clanking sound as they walk across their floors which I've been told could be that there is a problem with the joists or maybe the resilient bars have not been installed correctly?

Also when their washing machine is on the pictures on my wall rattle aswell as my lounge door when it is closed.

Is this normal for insulation and an acoustic system, which according to my Housing Association is above British Standard?

It all points towards a structural problem as my ground floor neighbours are having the same issues with the teenage couple above them. Even if it is to British Standard it is not enough to separate 2 families, especially when there are young children involved who are running about and jumping off of furniture all the time.

Thanks for the advice. I'm going to write to my Housing Association again on Monday.

I don't know much about floating floors admittedly, but structurally if there was excess movement in the joists then surely you notice cracking and stress cracking along the ceiling boards and around the edges of internal walls.


The flats on my estate have concrete ceilings, and even then some sound does pass through them, but normal walking and washing machine sounds are not a problem and not heard.


I should imagine you have an inspection hatch In your flat or in a neighbors flat? that youd be able to view into the cavity with a torch, from there you should be able to see the insulation, odds on its normal loft insulation and nothing in the way of rubber matting, or foam blocking in there, if the cavity is empty (I would be really shocked if it was completely empty) but nothing shocks me with HA builds then there you have your problem, but to inspect the joists are properly attached they would have to use a borescope from the outside brick work to view them to make sure the joists are locked down and not on the move.


like with every HA they are limited budget driven to save money, so getting them to take something such as noise seriously is going to be hard but if you keep plugging away at them with with persuasive letters, and phone calls and your neighbors do the same, then pressure to do something come quicker rather than later!


is this a converted house into flats or is this purpose built and is it on a HA estate?
how long abouts have they been built? sorry to ask if been answered previously.


what does your tenants hand book say about noise? what does it say about maintenance responsibilities.
and your rights as a tenenant in general?


would be handy to see some of these clauses they have in you tenants handbook that you feel are relevant that way I could say yes quote that and give reason underneath as to why.


I'm no expert by My HA are so large now from when I first moved in 11 yaers ago that to get them to take notice of anything you have to quote tenant rights and reasons as to why they should take notice! or they play you down, with excuse after excuse.


I can see why you would want to spend out money on getting someone in to do the improvements, My advice DO NOT DO THIS!! any modernizing or improvements made internally is your responsibility to maintain its upkeep, many a business wont touch the work with a bargepole, until letter confirmation has been given approving the work from the HA, structural works or structural improvements will not be permitted by a HA, that will include putting things into the cavity without first having a surveyor come take a look.


plus if you make a improvement the HA can then increase rent accordingly.


any damage is your responsibility to put right, that includes damage to neighboring flats caused by your planned works.


I would keep you money in your pocket. it will be a waste.


I would put some money towards say getting in a specialist to read the bore results and look in the cavity with the HA surveyor so they now your serious, and cant down play results, but that's as far as I would go.




I don't know if this maybe any use to you aswell, like I said, don't know when the building was constructed.


there is no "british standard" as far as im aware they are citing the building asa whole meets british standards, but noise passage is a buildings regulation.


http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/buildingregulations/approveddocuments/parte/approved

download the booklet free here http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/uploads/br/BR_PDF_AD_E_2010.pdf

you can download the noise passage regulation here, BUT if this post dates your build, then its a waste of time.


if your build is within the dates of the passage of noise regs, your aim is to find breach and hold HA to regulations.


I make no claim to be a buildings professional, or have any legal background, the advice here is based upon my own experience with my own HA, many HA's and depending on where you are in country vary greatly with tenants rights and regulations vary from where you are in the uk.


From my perspective the HA are dealing with you in a subject category based way such as here where your complaint is about children playing noisily they are stating nothing can be done because its children playing, so are shutting down these lines of enquiry due to that, raising a new subject with the view to looking at passage of noise in the regulations (where applicable) may get you further ahead.

Furts

atrixblue.-MFR-. wrote: »

Enviromental health are correct in that they cannot enforce noise abatement against children. its been tried and tested within the courts in past and the outcome are always the same they don't get anywhere as children will act impulsively and they have a freedom to play as its their fundamental human right.

This may be so, but the details that I posted show that it is possible to circumvent this. Here the Injunctions have been served on both parents, requiring them to control their children. If the parents fail in this then they are deemed unsatisfactory parents, thus making them more prone to the ire of the Authorities.

Furts

MJK4711 wrote: »

Thanks Atrixblue. That's really good advice.

I have tried to record the sound but because it is "impact" rather than airborne it doesn't sound as bad on the recording.

I was thinking of getting an independent sound test done but I was quoted £400.

It may well be that the insulation is up to British Standards and is just not enough ?? I'm then thinking that £400 could go towards the cost of improving it.

If it was to British Standard should I be hearing it to the extent that I do? I also hear a clanking sound as they walk across their floors which I've been told could be that there is a problem with the joists or maybe the resilient bars have not been installed correctly?

Also when their washing machine is on the pictures on my wall rattle aswell as my lounge door when it is closed.

Is this normal for insulation and an acoustic system, which according to my Housing Association is above British Standard?

It all points towards a structural problem as my ground floor neighbours are having the same issues with the teenage couple above them. Even if it is to British Standard it is not enough to separate 2 families, especially when there are young children involved who are running about and jumping off of furniture all the time.

Thanks for the advice. I'm going to write to my Housing Association again on Monday.

Stop and ponder on the date the design of your flats was approved by Building Regulations. Indeed, this could have been some years before construction commenced. The date is relevant because of what has happened, technically speaking, with home building.

By around 2000 the Government had become aware that builders had pushed the boundaries of cost cutting too far, and moves were introduced to improve sound transmission. Light weight floor joists had been introduced, plasterboard was being pumped with air during production, metal partitions were being used, laminated and Paramount board partitions were flimsy...etc.

The industry resisted sound testing for it would be costly, disruptive, and there would be numerous failures. Standards were laid down, and gradually things got better. But it was hit and miss, plus a learning curve. If your flat has been constructed to "Robust Details" then in theory it is OK but nobody will have tested it to know. There is an exception if the Housing Association employed a satisfactory Clerk Of Works, or engaged professional sound testing.

Basically it is one huge, unnecessary mess, and your flat may have met the standards of the day, but be woeful by todays standards.

The Housing Association may be fobbing you off. It is a can of worms, and they may know that the flats are unsatisfactory, and they may know that they have never been tested.

Come back to the Forum with the relevant date, the builder, and if it was a design and build contract (which is not good news in this instance). It may be that someone could shed further light on this.

atrixblue.-MFR-.

Furts wrote: »

This may be so, but the details that I posted show that it is possible to circumvent this. Here the Injunctions have been served on both parents, requiring them to control their children. If the parents fail in this then they are deemed unsatisfactory parents, thus making them more prone to the ire of the Authorities.

I did see the post, but and the thinking behind my post is that many time HA goes to court over anti social behavior causing noise, judges tend to shy away from it and not rule in favor when its young children involved in an otherwise peaceful and compliant at other times and this costs them money.


my thinking was, even if if they got a order form a judge, it would not stop the noise travel and OP would still experience noise, whether that be washing machine rattling the doors, picture frames, or even if the occupants decided to have a move around of furniture, hence my advice in going to the HA with a different approach to the noise entirely in that they should look at the noise travel throughout the building.

Norman_Castle

Op What was the result of the mediation?. Are the HA aware of the stress and health problems this is causing you?.

I believe soundproofing is far more effective at keeping noise in a room rather than preventing it entering another. To stop heavy impact noise would require multiple layers of soundproof flooring. Even this would have a limited effect due to noise transferred into joists and walls. I doubt ceiling insulation would have much effect on heavy impact noise. The HA are likely to be aware of this which is why they are reluctant to try it. If you can prove the construction is substandard they should attend to it but convincing them will be difficult.

From my own experience the most likely way this noise will stop is through changing the neighbors behavior. If you are on relatively friendly terms with the neighbor sit them down and explain exactly what the problem is and how it effects you. Tell the children. They may be wiser and more receptive than the parents. If you are not willing to do this ask for further mediation. Explain that this problem will not end for you until the noise stops. Complain and keep complaining.

MJK4711

Very interesting points. Thanks guys.

This is a new build property (2013) and over the past year I have sent 40+ emails to HA and have phoned them and had meetings with them. Their stance is that the flats meet standards (and more) so as far as they are concerned, both me and my ground floor neighbours have to learn to live with it. I have a reasonable relationship with my neighbours upstairs considering the circumstances, but their attitude is kids will be kids. The agreement after mediation was that they would do their best to keep the noise down but it made absolutely no difference.

Believe me I have said and tried everything with both HA and neighbours, as have my elderly neighbours next door.

In the beginning my HA wrote to my neighbours and seemed to be on my side, but after my last complaint their last letter stated that my neighbours noise levels were normal. How they know this is beyond me as they have not witnessed the noise. It's obviously easier and cheaper for them to ignore the ground floor tenants and side with the tenants above.

My neighbours noise levels probably are normal considering they have 2 small children but that does not excuse the fact that the levels I can hear totally disrupt my life.

Horizon81

I don't think there's much you can do other than move. Even with acoustic carpet/underlay in your neighbours flat, you're always going to hear kids running about on a wooden floor. The issue may be worse than other flats due to the cheaper nature of new builds these days, especially if you have just plasterboard ceiling, then a void where the joists are, then just floorboards or chipboard floor above - effectively just like a normal house.

MJK4711

It sounds exactly like a normal house. Just like when my own children were small and playing in the bedroom upstairs (mucking about and jumping around).