URGENT ADVICE NEEDED PLEASE Benefit Fraud? ESA

janey22

Hello,
I'm in a very panicked state regarding a complex personal situation with overpayments and would like advice and thoughts.
[Background info] I have been signed off work since 2009 due to severe mental health problems.
I have been claiming ESA, HB, CTB and DLA since 2010, however since 2012 I have chosen not to claim HB or CTB, so have been claiming ESA (Support Group) and DLA (High Rate Care, Low Rate Mobility).
When I first started my claim, I provided all the required details to the DWP, including all of my savings (I was actually in debt at the time). I was very ill and was heavily medicated and was under the care of a mental health crisis team.
Perhaps it is because I am in the Support Group, but I have never been contacted by the DWP for any review of my claim, aside from the occasional health questionnaire.

Due to an error in my finances (since the start of my claim) and my failure to stop a Standing Order from my current account to my second current account (This was from our previous flat whereby the landlord wanted all rents collected from one account. I nominated my second account, and when we moved out the other tenant stopped their Standing Order but I forgot to) I have found out that I have accumulated a vast amount of savings in this second account, of which I don't even have a bank card, and I just forgot about it. I found out about this error last year and after panicking and refusing to even acknowledge the problem by cancelling the S.O, I finally stopped the S.O upon the advice of my psychiatrist, as my main current account didn't have much money in it, and as I don't claim HB and pay my rent out of my ESA and DLA, even living thriftily I was struggling to get by and was depriving myself of essentials. The other advice I was given was to get a bank card and start spending my money (it was, after all. accumulated unspent benefits) but I tend to compartmentalize and panic and I couldn't do that or even look at what the balance of the account was, but I knew it must be high. Also, very recently all at the same time, I have been suffering from immense bereavement following the death of a very close relative who helped bring me up, and I am being evicted from my flat! (my section 21 expired a fortnight ago and I'm awaiting a possession order). Letting agents won't touch me as I have no guarantor and am signed off sick long-term, but they have said I can pay 6/12 months' rent up front to secure a new tenancy. My support workers (for mental health) felt that this was a very good idea, and encouraged me to check the balance of my second account - which I have been too scared to do to date.
I now have finally checked the status of my savings, and the result is terrible: I have about £17,000 spread across my accounts, and although this has fluctuated somewhat, it has more or less been the case that I have been over £16,000 since 2012. Meaning obviously, that I have not been entitled to any ESA since this time.

I have felt desperately low. I am recently bereaved, being evicted, depressed, and now fear I'm going to be prosecuted. I went to the CAB and a welfare rights adviser told me that 1) There was a tariff income for ESA so this issue goes back to late 2010 / early 2011 2) I am not entitled to ESA due to my savings 3) I should have been paid a Severe Disability Premium for the past 3 years, which means I was underpaid to an extent. (But I don't think this is at all relevant if I shouldn't have been in receipt of ESA at all during this time?). The adviser has offered to send a letter to the DWP on my behalf (a very simple one, a few lines, no details) but encouraged me to talk about this with my support workers (who specialise in mental health, benefits and tenancy issues) first, before coming to a decision.
However, those support workers are advising me very differently. As they are not all too familiar with the rules regarding savings and ESA (demonstrated by the fact that 1) They don't see how accumulated unspent benefits can class as savings 2) They were not aware of a tariff income for ESA) their advice is as follows: I need a roof over my head. Access the savings. Spend a few thousand on paying for my 6 months rent and deposit. Buy some things I need. Then I will have depleted my funds to qualify for ESA and HB and I will be able to move house, because I'm being evicted. Obviously, this advice is not lawful, but they are not lawyers and their primary concern is the state of my mental health, preventing a breakdown and hospitalisation, and securing me a new home. They have my best interests at heart, and will of course support me even if I decide to go to the DWP also.

The adviser from CAB has informed me that as she is now aware of my situation, if I want CAB to act on my behalf I must let her know straight away (tomorrow!). Otherwise they cannot support me. This is understandable.

I am so confused by the contradictory advice (black and white law vs advice) and so scared. I estimate that my overpayments go back years and I must therefore owe £14,000-20,000. Maybe more. I am so overwhelmed.

I believe my "defense" is: 1) I was honest about my circumstances at the start of my claim (and whenever they have requested information) but I have pretty much been left alone by the DWP. 2) Information relating the accruing unspent benefits during a claim is not mentioned anywhere on any of my letters under "changes you much tell us about" etc, and has been so hard to find out: my mental health support workers have training in welfare and benefits and yet they were unaware of how this could be unlawful; and even the CAB admitted that they had to research the facts because they usually deal with clients who are being investigated, and I'm not; 3) I have mental health problems and am in the Support Group and get DLA; 4) I have not touched this secondary account (which has nearly all of the money in it). I haven't touched it because I feel that this demonstrates I haven't purposely accumulated money to fund a lavish lifestyle. Only now I'm completely distressed because my main account has run so low (£200), I need to move, pay rent in advance and pay bills, pay my current rent, and need to access this money, and I feel that if I do so it'll look like I've purposely depleted my funds for the purpose of claiming benefits. (Notional income?)

After a huge, long-winded overly detailed account of my situation, (sorry) I'd like to ask the following questions:

1) Should I go to the DWP? If yes, when? Before I deplete my funds for moving, or after? If no, ie. just spend the money I need to spend to move which depletes my funds, would I not need to tell them about savings over £6,000 and if not, would they not find out? Should I even be using this money to pay my rent in advance?

2) If yes, how? With CAB or a solicitor? A basic, brief letter (suggesting this has just come to my attention) or something more detailed, with supportive evidence, perhaps medical?

3) What will the likely outcome be? Will I be prosecuted? Will I be publicly named and shamed? Will I have to pay it all back? Are there any valid mitigating circumstances, such as my mental health, or their obligation to inform me of my obligations to report this accumulation of unspent benefits?

4) Will it make any difference if access the savings in the secondary account and spend them? Is this idea that "I haven't touched the money" as a defense really relevant? (That bank wrote to me and said that due to inactivity they would make my account inactive - all I needed to do was to deposit or withdraw some money to keep it active, but I was too scared and let it become frozen). If I spend several thousand on paying a 6/12 month tenancy in advance going to get me in trouble?

5) I have been claiming ESA since 2009. Am I due a review or spot-check anyway?

6) Will it make much of a difference if I go to the DWP myself and hand myself in?

I know this has been very long-winded.
The CAB want a decision from me tomorrow as to whether they are going to write the letter. My support worker is encouraging me to keep quiet, or go to a solicitor, but there are no specialist ones in my area. I contacted a benefit fraud lawyer for a 10 min consultation and read them my drafted letter to the DWP and they basically told me not to send it, why go to them if I'm not being chased, the DWP are totally unsympathetic, come back if and when I get investigated etc. But I am so paranoid and worried now I know I am in this situation. Even if I spend the money to move, which brings my savings down to way under 16,000 I will still know I should be on a tariff income and that I shouldn't have claimed anything since 2012. My possession order for my eviction is looming.

I'm completely and utterly terrified and confused and this situation is impacting heavily on my health. This was all a huge mistake. I never intended to commit fraud and I'm horrified at the situation and scared of the consequences should I go to the DWP. I would be so grateful for any thoughts or experiences - good or bad. Thank you so much in advance.

dippy3103

only you can decide what you do.

If you make a voluntary disclosure rather than wait to get caught it will go in your favour. The sooner you do it the quicker you will know.

If you don't disclose it, will you worry & worry about it?

Lioness_Twinkletoes

I did skip a lot of your post as it is unnecessary waffle. Ultimately, for whatever reason, you now have enough money not to need benefits. This puts you in the enviable position of being able to afford to pay 6 - 12 months rent in advance. Most landlords will accept this.

You need to write to the DWP and declare the money. Be honest (if a little briefer than in your post) and let them deal with it. Once they have calculated the over payment you may end up with a financial penalty as well. Pay both, job done, get on with your life.

Ruby_woo

Didn't want to read and run but only time for a quick reply.

Firstly, it's pretty clear to me that you have NOT done anything wrong on purpose, as if you were trying to do this on purpose then you would have kept the savings under 16,000 and only had a small amount of your benefit deducted each week. Am I right in saying this please? I'm sure lots of people on here can clarify this?

Secondly, it sounds like this is eating you up. The constant worrying etc. I understand that.

Thirdly, you are going to need somewhere to live so IMO you have to use your savings to get set up. This will have to happen as you can't live on the streets.

If you tell DWP then yes, it's going to cause severe stress for you in the short term but maybe they will let you pay back the monies out of any benefit you will be entitled to once you are set up in your new home?

I can hand on heart say I have no idea about this situation but I don't like to think of anyone this upset.

Can others please advise whether my thoughts are correct?

However, finally, say they did prosecute, what's the worst case scenario? You see it day in, day out in the papers and some people have done far worse than you.

Try and get this sorted in your mind.

HTH x

Feral_Moon

Is there any reason you stopped claiming HB and CTB? What have you been using to pay your rent and council tax if all this money has been re-directed to a second account?

rogerblack

To address only one tiny slice of a post - yes, unspent benefits do count as savings.
(once a fortnight or whatever the normal payment interval is past, they go from income to savings.)

LostAndAshamed

I'd hand myself in if I was you. I have some mental health issues too, and it'd eat me up waiting to be found out.

They'll pause your ESA while they investigate, but your DLA should be unaffected. They will reassess you based on having £17,000 in savings, and work out how much you have been overpaid by. You may have an interview with them, but as you admitted this yourself, they will treat you much better than if they "catch" you.

Nobody can say if they will prosecute, or whether there will be a financial settlement. It is worth noting that you'll be able to pay back the overpayment quickly, though, so that will go in your favour.

If you spend the money, and the DWP find out, you'll be in more trouble. For a start, they'll treat you harshly because you didn't come clean. I also believe that they are allowed to treat you as if you still have the money if you spend it on unessential purchases - it isn't lawful to spend money to remain entitled to benefits. Some costs are allowable, but there is no definitive list. In that situation, you'd have spent the money but would be treated as if you still had it, so you'd not have income from anywhere.

If it was me, I'd speak to CAB today and get them to help you draft the letter. It should be short, and to the point. Don't ramble. Send any statements you have. Explain how the money built up without you noticing. Then ask CAB to contact your support workers, explain why this had to be done, and ensure that you are well supported through the process.

The alternative for me would be a lot of sleepless nights and worrying, and they could review at any time, so it'd just be waiting until they spotted it.

nannytone_2

Feral_Moon wrote: »

Is there any reason you stopped claiming HB and CTB? What have you been using to pay your rent and council tax if all this money has been re-directed to a second account?

as per the above quote ....
if you receive support group ESA, high rate care DLA and low rate mobility DLA your total 4 weekly income would be around £1,200 ( so £300 a week)
you say you claim not housing or council tax benefit.
how are you managing to pay 2 lots of rent plus council tax and have ANYTHING left at all?
presuming this second account held the minimum that still entitled you to benefit, this is still a staggering 11k amassed in 2 years. ( you say you stopped claiming HB and CTB in 2012)
you also allude to an 'error in finances' at the start of your claim.
what was this error.
finally, are you on income based ESA or conts based?

Housing_Benefit_Officer

Every day you keep quit and say nothing is a days more overpayment that accrues. The hidden account will be picked up during a data matching exercise. It might me next week or next month or next year but sometime in the future it will be discovered.

dodger1

LostAndAshamed wrote: »

I'd hand myself in if I was you. I have some mental health issues too, and it'd eat me up waiting to be found out.

Agreed, and to add, the vast majority of us who don't have mental health problems would also be eaten up with the worry.

OP let them know your mistake, I seriously doubt there would be any prosecution due to your mental health, if after an investigation it's found you owe money I'd hope in this type of circumstance it will simply be a repayment and maybe interest added on.

GirlFromMars_2

Were you working prior to claiming ESA?

Do you know if you have an entitlement to Contributions Based ESA?

As you are in the support group, if you have a Conts ESA entitlement you would still be entitled to Conts-ESA, even after your income rose above the thresholds.

Are you receiving the Enhanced Disability Premium or the Severe Disability Premium? These are income related, and would definitely be affected by your savings.

I would definitely write to the DWP and get this sorted out. You have all the money in an account waiting to be paid back if necessary. And you have evidence that you haven't been using this account which strongly suggests you really didn't realise about it.

Get back in touch with the CAB and let them help you.