Land registry and boundary dispute

Another_username_2

What a nonsense!

As others have pointed out, the plans provided to the Land Registry do not (and were never intended to) bear interpretation to that precision. Although modern computer-aided drafting packages can produce plans that approach the standard your neighbours might like, those prepared forty years ago were hand-drawn, albeit by skilled draughtsmen. A reasonable expectation of their accuracy might have been 1mm or so on plan, so, for a 1:500 plan, 0.5 to 1m on the ground. If they were prepared by a builder's jobbing draughtsman, I would be surprised if accuracy were even that good.

There may well be a narrative definition of the position of the boundary within the deeds themselves, in which case they, or failing that, and in the absence of any other material, the historical boundary markers (the existing posts) surely provide the definitive line.

Unfortunately, it seems that your new neighbours have litigious tendencies. But, as I see it, the issue hangs fundamentally not on law but on how the plans (and any associated narrative in the deeds) are to be interpreted. Your neighbours have already hired a surveyor who is willing to grossly over-state their case. In your shoes, I would be looking for a surveyor, too, and not just any surveyor - one with expertise in the preparation and interpretation of those plans and, crucially, accredited by the RICS to act as an expert witness in court.

You can find such experts through the RICS website - this site still thinks I'm a new user and won't let me provide a link. It lists 45 accredited expert witnesses with experience in property and boundary disputes. Someone with this sort of qualification and relevant experience would come at premium rates, but you would have the assurance that you were getting really sound advice that will be fully backed-up if the matter does get to court. The cost may be mitigated by the fact that an expert of this sort is likely to have met similar circumstances before so will need less time to review the papers. In the shorter term, I would hope that statements from an appropriately qualified surveyor would give any other professional your neighbours might hire very serious pause for thought, and hopefully stop this silliness dead in its tracks.

Disclosure: I am not a Chartered Surveyor. For what it is worth, I have worked with surveyors as a professional peer in a different but related speciality.

moneyistooshorttomention

Another_username wrote: »

There may well be a narrative definition of the position of the boundary within the deeds themselves, in which case they, or failing that, and in the absence of any other material, the historical boundary markers (the existing posts) surely provide the definitive line.

.

I'm having to do a heck of a lot of research myself at the moment in this sort of connection (ie a squatter on part of my garden) and, in the course of this, have come across various comments about the widely-varying standard that plans have been drawn to. These ranging from very carefully-drawn to not much more than "back of an envelope" level.

My understanding, from that research, too is that measurements may have sometimes been more or less accurately taken and it is important as to whether these measurements were taken "on the ground" or "in the air". The reason for that being because ones taken "on the ground" wont necessarily be allowing for any slope in the ground.

From my research too it would appear that any explanatory text with the plans takes precedence over the plans themselves. It looks to me as if, if there seems to be a clash between text with the plans and the plans themselves, then the text would be deemed correct??

I think it would be useful all round here if anyone has "chapter and verse" they can provide stating this precisely (eg point 4.1 of document x says "in the event of a dispute, the text takes precedence for interpretation purposes"). Does anyone have that "chapter and verse" for this?

moneyistooshorttomention

On googling re text taking precedence over plans, I came across a site - which is way too long a link for me to put up.

However googling "Title deeds - RICS iConsult" should bring it up and I gather somewhere amongst all that wording is that point.

moneyistooshorttomention

moneyistooshorttomention wrote: »

I'm having to do a heck of a lot of research myself at the moment in this sort of connection (ie a squatter on part of my garden) and, in the course of this, have come across various comments about the widely-varying standard that plans have been drawn to. These ranging from very carefully-drawn to not much more than "back of an envelope" level.

My understanding, from that research, too is that measurements may have sometimes been more or less accurately taken and it is important as to whether these measurements were taken "on the ground" or "in the air". The reason for that being because ones taken "on the ground" wont necessarily be allowing for any slope in the ground.

From my research too it would appear that any explanatory text with the plans takes precedence over the plans themselves. It looks to me as if, if there seems to be a clash between text with the plans and the plans themselves, then the text would be deemed correct??

I think it would be useful all round here if anyone has "chapter and verse" they can provide stating this precisely (eg point 4.1 of document x says "in the event of a dispute, the text takes precedence for interpretation purposes"). Does anyone have that "chapter and verse" for this?

bumping this for LAND REGISTRY REPS thoughts on that particular point.

Norman_Castle

killerkev wrote: »

I have put my concerns in writing weeks ago but they have not replied just told my parents "what are you going to do???" as 87 year old's not a lot!

Removing a neighbors fence could be considered criminal damage.

It would be a foolish and heartless fencing contractor who risked injuring an 87 year old who has chosen to stand over their fence during any removal attempt..

moneyistooshorttomention

Again, from my research to date, I cant recall the latin phrases used, but the basic concept seemed to be that "criminal damage" is where there is a "guilty mind" (ie deliberate intention of causing damage), but that any other damage is a civil matter. If those neighbours genuinely believe that it is on their land and can prove it and are doing the removing very carefully, so as not to cause any damage to it, then it would be a struggle to prove "guilty mind" and therefore "criminal damage".

Playing the Old Person Card too might backfire. It depends possibly to some extent what part of the country this scenario is taking place in. There are some parts of the country where there are some old-fashioned ideas amongst a section of the populace about "old people come first just by virtue of being old". Even in those sections of the country though, a lot of people wont agree with that and will discount the age of anyone involved as being as irrelevant as it actually is.

Davesnave

Norman_Castle wrote: »

Removing a neighbors fence could be considered criminal damage.

It would be a foolish and heartless fencing contractor who risked injuring an 87 year old who has chosen to stand over their fence during any removal attempt..

....Or who has just planted leylandii along the 'new' boundary.

moneyistooshorttomention

Davesnave wrote: »

....Or who has just planted leylandii along the 'new' boundary.

Errr...I don't think we want to go there Dave do we about starting up a whole new potential dispute, ie the High Hedges Act that allows for "two or more" of such trees to be counted as being a hedge and their height can be regulated accordingly.

Not to mention any adjudication as to where that boundary then lies would likely result in a verdict of literally bang down the middle of the top of those trees - and the neighbour could (errr...would) trim them literally right down the centre.

...and I'm only on my first cup of coffee for the day, but my brain came up with that one instantly...

killerkev

Another_username wrote: »

What a nonsense!

As others have pointed out, the plans provided to the Land Registry do not (and were never intended to) bear interpretation to that precision. Although modern computer-aided drafting packages can produce plans that approach the standard your neighbours might like, those prepared forty years ago were hand-drawn, albeit by skilled draughtsmen. A reasonable expectation of their accuracy might have been 1mm or so on plan, so, for a 1:500 plan, 0.5 to 1m on the ground. If they were prepared by a builder's jobbing draughtsman, I would be surprised if accuracy were even that good.

There may well be a narrative definition of the position of the boundary within the deeds themselves, in which case they, or failing that, and in the absence of any other material, the historical boundary markers (the existing posts) surely provide the definitive line.

Unfortunately, it seems that your new neighbours have litigious tendencies. But, as I see it, the issue hangs fundamentally not on law but on how the plans (and any associated narrative in the deeds) are to be interpreted. Your neighbours have already hired a surveyor who is willing to grossly over-state their case. In your shoes, I would be looking for a surveyor, too, and not just any surveyor - one with expertise in the preparation and interpretation of those plans and, crucially, accredited by the RICS to act as an expert witness in court.

Agree their surveyor has over stated their case I particularly like the phrase" in my opinion you are perfectly at will to erect a boundary fence as you see fit and there is no requirement for you to take into account any access for your neighbours !!"

Looks like the best course of action to get my own surveyor, was hoping to avoid the expense!!!! No idea how much these things cost

Davesnave

moneyistooshorttomention wrote: »

...and I'm only on my first cup of coffee for the day, but my brain came up with that one instantly...

Let's hope you are also now awake enough to spot irony.

killerkev wrote: »

Looks like the best course of action to get my own surveyor, was hoping to avoid the expense!!!! No idea how much these things cost

I seem to remember about £125 an hour, but I might be wrong. I don't trust my memory these days.

In our relative's case it was something worth doing in monetary terms, so just part of the overall expenses for building a house.