apprenticeships & WTC

kazzah

thank you for your comments pmlindyloo

quite WHY this is my sons fault is beyond me - there is NO obligation stated on his annual award notice to inform WTC that his salary had dropped - I double checked it prior to him commencing work.

It merely stated that IF his income rose above £11420.00 he needed to contact HMRC

there is NO reason for the "average claimant" to know that the HMRC system is set up so that it doesn't recognise the apprentice salary paid by HM Government. Obviously HAD he known that his salary would be converted to "minimum wage VS hours worked" he would have informed them.

I do not believe my son is " a special case" - I am appalled that ANYONE should have to wait for 20 weeks for an investigation into a dispute - however as this error is system generated it seems harsh to expect anyone to to wait 20 weeks when the error is not of their making.

Also HMRC failed to contact my son to verify the information and failed to send out a compliance letter before stopping his payments.

Also what is ridiculous is that EVERY month when the real time information is generated it is entirely possible that the same thing will happen and we will have to go through the whole process again

I don't ask anyone to bend the rules for me - I simply ask that a system is fir for purpose - clearly HMRC isn't which probably explains why there is a 20 week wait to have any investigations carried out.

And WHY shouldn't I try to change the system?
the system is inadequate - every month his wtc will be stopped and every month he needs to dispute it - oh well, at least he will be keeping someone in a job.

kazzah

bloolagoon wrote: »

Will he be entitled to WTC? I thought apprenticeship rules were that you had to be subject to tax and NI which on £100 a week he isn't.

he is entitled because he is disabled and claiming DLA - so this entitles him as long as he works the requisite number of hours

kazzah

Yes blondebubbles he did receive that - and at the time he received that form with his annual award notice all the details were correct - his salary was correct, the number of hours he worked was correct.

He only started this apprenticeship at the start of September - and even if he HAD called the "helpline" - would they have been able to alter his income?
the system STILL wouldn't be able to cope with his apprenticeship salary and the hours worked - because if it could- then

A) this wouldn't have arisen

the "helpline staff" would be able to have amended it yesterday when we called.

Also I am somewhat astounded that the implication is that my son has behaved inappropriately in some way - if he HAD fraudulently claimed WTC then I could understand people's annoyance with him - but due to past experiences with changing information on a tax credits claim he simply chose to wait until the year end before declaring what his ACTUAL annual income was and recouping ANY underpayment he might have been due.

xylophone

I know you are annoyed but your son or you as his appointee has to accept some responsibility for this.

Exactly so - see my post 5.

The OP seems simply to have decided not to inform the relevant authority because she thought it might cause problems?

kazzah

blondebubbles wrote: »

I have not in any way mentioned fraud. However you seem adamant to put the blame on tax credits and to be honest I think you sound quite distrespectful towards their staff. Do you think they want to listen to grief all day long? People can't all choose where they work or how they work. You cannot begin to understand how difficult the job is if you haven't worked there.

If your son is successful in becoming a benefits adviser, he will understand that although you may want to do more, you can't.

Anyways. . .

Yes they would have been able to amend his income.

They could have also noted that he was an apprentice. The investigating officer may have then seen this note and understood why normal NMW was not being paid.

The helpline can still amend the income even now that the claim has ended. They cannot reinstate the claim as they have no authority to do so. In the nicest possible way, anything can be said over the phone. I am in no way saying you or your some would lie but some people do.

Proof will be required and this will most likely be checked as part of the appeal unless the speak directly with the employer who can confirm the situation.

I am not putting the blame on"tax credits" - I have repeatedly stated that their SYSTEM is not fit for purpose as the helpline staff have also informed me that this could be a regular occurence - even i don't believe for one minute that the staff WANT to have irate people phoning all the time - so IF they could avoid the issue then they would.

my son isn't lying about the phone call - I made the call for him as he was very stressed from working with claimants all days and he asked me to call for him and gave them permission to speak with me- so when I quote what was said- I am telling the truth.

I was told by 3 different people that they were unable to amend his income OR working hours - that "only back room staff" can do that.

if I offended you in any way then I apologise- I will ensure that EVERY change of circumstance is reported to HMRC.

I still don't accept that it should take 20 weeks to investigate nor do I accept that his benefit should have been summarily stopped without contact from a compliance officer - which could have cleared everything up.

And you are correct- my son already comes home and tells us of the people he would like to be able to do more for and is unable to - but just as there are people like him and you - equally there are those who are happy to say " don't bother calling back before 11th March 2015 because we won't have anything to tell you "

as with everything- it is the manner in which things are dealt with which affects us most - at a stressful time, that comment was not really appropriate

kazzah

In the nicest possible way, anything can be said over the phone. I am in no way saying you or your some would lie but some people do.

sorry- then why did you feel the need to say this?

the matter has been referred to my MP and a formal complaint has been submitted and I contacted the office of Nick Lodge the Commissioner for benefits and credits today.

Despite what you may think of me -I WOULD like to try and change things for people - I have actually spent 20 years working voluntarily to help people. And have been told on many occasions that I can't change anything - well I have tried and will continue to try- because if everyone simply accepted what they were told we might still be living in the dark ages

stevemLS

blondebubbles wrote: »

Did you even read what you just quoted? I said in no way was I sayng you or your son would lie. I was explaining why the matter cannot be resolved on the phone with the helpline.

Anyway I can see where my help or advice is not wanted.

Good luck to your son.

Blondbubbles is one of the most kind hearted, generous and helpful people I have ever seen on these forums.

OP you come across as completely unreasonable. This whole situation seems to have arisen because of YOUR decision not to notify a change in circumstances - reading the thread as a totality it seems to me that you are the author of your own (well, your son's in fact) misfortune.

This from a dispassionate observer, I wouldn't have said a word but for your wholly unjustified comments about blondbubbles.

kazzah

ok before i bow out

the situation has NOT arisen because we failed to notify the TCO of a change in circumstances

the situation is that the HMRC system cannot recognise any salary which does not meet minimum wage so it automatically recalculates the hours worked

so - minimum wage is; £6.50 per hours for person aged 22
employer sends FPS via payroll system to HMRC stating salary of £400 per month

system is not set up to recognise any other amount than NMW
(according to helpline staff) so automatically generates working hours of 13 ( according to tc award)

Even when this is corrected manually for ONE session of FPS - the likelihood ( according to helpline) is that it will happen on the next session - despite a dispute being raised and despite the TCO being informed it is an apprentice salary.

so whether or not we had informed TCO of a reduction of salary which equates to less than £3600 PER ANNUM the situation would still have arisen and may well continue to arise.

at no point have I denigrated blondbubbles personally - I am well aware that she has a valid ( and clearly working) knowledge of a system I don't.

at no point have i said to her in a post
" i'm not saying you or your colleagues would lie"

so for her to mention it was unneccessary and i don't feel that any of my posts have contained "unjustified comments" about her - I have not commented on her personally at all - she made a comment in which I felt she implied that either me or my son were lying
I simply asked her why she felt the need to say that - and she didn't actually answer the question.

I now suspect she works on the helpline - she is very good at repeating the same information ad infinitum which is actually of no help whatsoever

nannytone_2

youre very rude for someone who is asking for people to give help
blondebubble has to keep repeating herself because you seem unable ( or inwilling) to digest the information she is giving you.

Icequeen99

kazzah wrote: »

ok before i bow out

the situation has NOT arisen because we failed to notify the TCO of a change in circumstances

the situation is that the HMRC system cannot recognise any salary which does not meet minimum wage so it automatically recalculates the hours worked

so - minimum wage is; £6.50 per hours for person aged 22
employer sends FPS via payroll system to HMRC stating salary of £400 per month

system is not set up to recognise any other amount than NMW
(according to helpline staff) so automatically generates working hours of 13 ( according to tc award)

Even when this is corrected manually for ONE session of FPS - the likelihood ( according to helpline) is that it will happen on the next session - despite a dispute being raised and despite the TCO being informed it is an apprentice salary.

so whether or not we had informed TCO of a reduction of salary which equates to less than £3600 PER ANNUM the situation would still have arisen and may well continue to arise.

at no point have I denigrated blondbubbles personally - I am well aware that she has a valid ( and clearly working) knowledge of a system I don't.

at no point have i said to her in a post
" i'm not saying you or your colleagues would lie"

so for her to mention it was unneccessary and i don't feel that any of my posts have contained "unjustified comments" about her - I have not commented on her personally at all - she made a comment in which I felt she implied that either me or my son were lying
I simply asked her why she felt the need to say that - and she didn't actually answer the question.

I now suspect she works on the helpline - she is very good at repeating the same information ad infinitum which is actually of no help whatsoever

The system can and does recognise when hours don't match income. If you had reported it, the helpline operator could have amended it and as BB says, added a note about the apprenticeship.

What has happened in your case, is the back office have received RTI data that say he is only earning £100 a month and therefore they have decided he isn't working enough hours and they have amended the system. It isn't automatic.

Are you sure your son has not received a letter about this? Very rare for them to amend without doing a written letter first which gives you the chance to explain.

The other thing is make sure that you APPEAL and not dispute. They are two different processes. Unfortunately appeals can take up to 12 months (sometimes longer). Disputes are currently taking around 20 weeks.

If you appeal, it might actually be easier to put in a fresh claim and then wait for the appeal on the old one. You should get some advice about this.

IQ