Electric heating systems, where to start?!

captainhindsight_2

Robwiz wrote: »

It'

There's a huge amount of evidence that retrofitting air/water heat pumps to older houses doesn't deliver the claimed benefits. (Cardew is right on this).

Thats not true, the problem is with it being a relatively new technology in the UK, there are not enough installers who know the technology so a lot of heat pumps have been sized wrong and not fitted properly but they are a good technology and can be used to provide all your heat requirement s in a well insulated home and will be considerably cheaper in the long run

Cardew

captainhindsight wrote: »

Thats not true, the problem is with it being a relatively new technology in the UK, there are not enough installers who know the technology so a lot of heat pumps have been sized wrong and not fitted properly but they are a good technology and can be used to provide all your heat requirement s in a well insulated home and will be considerably cheaper in the long run

I agree a lot of heat pumps are sized wrongly, badly fitted - often to unsuitable houses.


So how would 'Mr and Mrs layman' prevent themselves paying out many thousands of pounds on something that doesn't work?


What recourse do they have if they have bought a pup? None - no firm will give a guarantee of performance.


There have been thousands of posts on MSE, and all over the internet, about heat pumps; many from people who have ripped them out.


I suggest before you blandly say Robwiz is wrong, you start with this thread and read both of the Energy Saving Trust trials on heat pumps.





https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/4831851

tberry6686

Noise is not an issue with modern well maintained heat pump.

Unfortunately many local planning department disagree with you on this (personally I think that they are wrong) and require planning permission for a heat pump to be installed. In the case of my local planning department, they will recommend refusal if there are any other houses close by.

captainhindsight_2

Cardew wrote: »

I agree a lot of heat pumps are sized wrongly, badly fitted - often to unsuitable houses.


So how would 'Mr and Mrs layman' prevent themselves paying out many thousands of pounds on something that doesn't work?


What recourse do they have if they have bought a pup? None - no firm will give a guarantee of performance.


There have been thousands of posts on MSE, and all over the internet, about heat pumps; many from people who have ripped them out.


I suggest before you blandly say Robwiz is wrong, you start with this thread and read both of the Energy Saving Trust trials on heat pumps.





https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/4831851

The same is true about any work, building a wall, instructing a solicitor how does mrband Mrs layman known until the service has been delivered. They don't so have to research and listen to feed back and recommendations. Poor quality work is not a monopoly of the renewables industry... Lol .


I am not blindly saying brobwiz is wrong I know he's wrong! As I have said, I own several heat pumps and one in my own home I have never had a problem and my tenants have never complained about them.

Cardew

captainhindsight wrote: »

The same is true about any work, building a wall, instructing a solicitor how does mrband Mrs layman known until the service has been delivered. They don't so have to research and listen to feed back and recommendations. Poor quality work is not a monopoly of the renewables industry... Lol .


I am not blindly saying brobwiz is wrong I know he's wrong! As I have said, I own several heat pumps and one in my own home I have never had a problem and my tenants have never complained about them.

So have you read the EST trial reports? Or the posts in this thread?

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/4831851

All of the major heat pump manufacturers were represented and frankly the results on 29 ASHPs over a year were little short of a disaster.

So the trial was extended and manufacturers were allowed to make major modifications - including replacement of heat pump itself if necessary - and the second phase over a year produced an average COP of 2.45.

Not exactly in line with your statement:

but if you want a 'fit and forget' solution ASHP will be the best

Also the results obtained are a long way short of what you posted earlier i.e.

A heat pump is a very good option, for every unit of electricity you put in you can get 3-4 units of heat out.

In fact only 1 ASHP in the trial got a COP of over 3.

So those results on the EST trials were with manufacturers obviously trying to get their heat pumps working as efficiently as possible.

Do you not think ASHPs, not having the advantage of manufacturers crawling all over the installations, might fare even worse?


I too have had an ASHP abroad and have a reasonable technical knowledge, but without complex measuring equipment I have absolutely no idea of how well it performed.

I suggest you and your tenants have no idea of the COP obtained.

As for researching, who should prospective customers believe on performance? the Energy Saving Trust or people like yourself?

Who is a cowboy and who is not? Manufacturers take no responsibility, they just sell them to installers and there is no guarantee of performance.

Do you think many installers would turn down a job because the house was unsuitable?

In effect your recommendation is to gamble several thousands of pounds taking pot luck that you get a good installation.

P.S.
And noise can be a problem, especially on a mid-terrace with other houses in close proximity.

lovesgshp

I would suggest using a couple of air to air units to see how you feel with the heating levels that they give. Far cheaper than a air/water unit, but you must have a alternative method for the DHW.

captainhindsight_2

Cardew wrote: »

So have you read the EST trial reports? Or the posts in this thread?

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/4831851

All of the major heat pump manufacturers were represented and frankly the results on 29 ASHPs over a year were little short of a disaster.

So the trial was extended and manufacturers were allowed to make major modifications - including replacement of heat pump itself if necessary - and the second phase over a year produced an average COP of 2.45.

Not exactly in line with your statement:



Also the results obtained are a long way short of what you posted earlier i.e.



In fact only 1 ASHP in the trial got a COP of over 3.

So those results on the EST trials were with manufacturers obviously trying to get their heat pumps working as efficiently as possible.

Do you not think ASHPs, not having the advantage of manufacturers crawling all over the installations, might fare even worse?


I too have had an ASHP abroad and have a reasonable technical knowledge, but without complex measuring equipment I have absolutely no idea of how well it performed.

I suggest you and your tenants have no idea of the COP obtained.

As for researching, who should prospective customers believe on performance? the Energy Saving Trust or people like yourself?

Who is a cowboy and who is not? Manufacturers take no responsibility, they just sell them to installers and there is no guarantee of performance.

Do you think many installers would turn down a job because the house was unsuitable?

In effect your recommendation is to gamble several thousands of pounds taking pot luck that you get a good installation.

P.S.
And noise can be a problem, especially on a mid-terrace with other houses in close proximity.

You clearly have no personal experience of heat pumps in the uk, and are quoting trials from poorly installed heat pumps.

You are clearly not in and building trade, I run a fairly large construction company and no manufacturer will allow you to touch their product until they have given you training and approval. This includes, insulation, rendering products, pipework literally everything! So yes manufactures do care because it is their product and their reputation on the line.

Yes an installer would turn down a job if a house is unsuitable as they would get a bad reputation and not get any work, do you know how a business works? Lol. Clearly an employed drone....

My recommendation is to spend a little more money initially but save thousands in the long run.

Th fact is, you are applying historical standards of installations to todays standards of installations and consumer protection and what you are saying has no relevance to anything that applies today.

CluelessNewbie

Thank you all for your responses.
I have done some more digging and come across Dimplex Quantum heating, seems to be the best of both worlds?

Robwiz

captainhindsight wrote: »

You are clearly not in and building trade, I run a fairly large construction company and no manufacturer will allow you to touch their product until they have given you training and approval. This includes, insulation, rendering products, pipework literally everything! So yes manufactures do care because it is their product and their reputation on the line.

So in conclusion folks, taking a punt on air source heat pumps is a safe bet if you run 'a fairly large construction company' and can supervise and control the choice of equipment and the labour doing the installation. Otherwise you're in the lap of the gods.

Don't bother reading peer-reviewed reports of trials conducted scientifically under controlled conditions - that's just history!

Also, some people who run 'fairly large construction companies' are very strong promoters of air source heat pumps. Wonder why? Perhaps it's really lucrative business?

sheffield_lad

CluelessNewbie wrote: »

Thank you all for your responses.
I have done some more digging and come across Dimplex Quantum heating, seems to be the best of both worlds?

I would look at storage heating too.


They may sound old fashioned but they are the cheapest option for you if there is no gas.


GL