EE/Orange/T-Mobile - Reclaim ALL price rises AND cancel contract re T&C change - 2

Mikmonken

JoeJester wrote: »

Amazing stuff thank you RC. Could you possibly email me across this defense? The formatting will be all over the place otherwise did you make it in a .doc originally?

Feel free to publish their defence in my case but just there's a lot of personal info so please blank it out and send it to my email so I can double check first?

Hi Joe, the defence in word format can be found on the Fight Mobile Increases website -> general link here -> http://fightmobileincreases.com/fight-ee/complete-camapaign-against-ee/

Specific document attachment here

On a second note, I've spoke to RC and think we can improve on one specific point in relation to the Para 15 (i've not seen the specifics of your defence by the way) but judging on the response RC has provided. See post below

Mikmonken

Paragraph 15 (1)
EE state“….The amendment changed the circumstance in which a price rise gives the claimant an automatic right to terminate the agreement, without paying a cancellation charge…” (I contend that they were changed to my Material Detriment/Detriment (UTCCRs))
I request that the adjudicator contrasts this statement in EEs legally prepared defence to the change notification that I received
“We're making some changes to the terms and conditions for your 4GEE plan to give you more clarity on the notification of price changes. For more details and to download a copy please see http://www.ee.co.uk/termsrefreshv1 The new terms will take effect from 26 March 2014.”

As can plainly be seen EE did NOT disclose the true meaning of the change they were making. a change to the “notification of price changes” (what EE told me at the time of the change) being substantially different to “amendment changed the circumstance in which a price rise gives the claimant an automatic right to terminate the agreement”

Further EE continue at Paragraph 15 (1) to state “The amendment was introduced in light of recent Ofcom comments with the intention of increasing certainty for consumers…”. EE are being economical with the truth here - as per my claim document Ofcom actually said, that they were offering guidance to CPs as “Unfair terms are not legally enforceable against consumers….so it is in CPs interests…..to ensure the terms are fair”:


http://stakeholders.ofcom.org.uk/binaries/consultations/addcharges/statement/Guidance.pdf
This is industry guidance on unfair terms in contracts for communications services. It focuses principally on additional charges in consumer contracts, also referring to the obligation for communications providers to comply with General Condition 9 (contract terms)

We’ve reference the industry guidance for unfair terms which i believe is quite dated guidance 2008/2010? (i can't find a specific date)

We need to include the following as an addition (RC correct me if otherwise)

EE reference to the recent comments with the intention of increasing certainty for consumers, Given the time scales scales in surrounding the change in T&C's it is more likely that EE are reference the guidance issued in October 2013 - where CP had 3 months to implement (i.e by 23 January 2014) the guidance as follows -> Price rises in fixed term contracts Decision to issue Guidance on General Condition 9. http://stakeholders.ofcom.org.uk/binaries/consultations/gc9/statement/GC9_statement.pdf

EE have inferred that the changes made were "in light of Ofcoms recent comments" however it is categorically clear from the comments that Ofcoms guidance was not in relation to existing contracts as per the implementation of guidance detailed below.

Implementation

1.28 Ofcom will adopt the approach set out in the guidance three months after the date of publication of this statement. It will apply in relation to any new contracts entered into on or after that adoption date.

1.29 We consider that three months should be sufficient for CPs to make any adjustments they identify as necessary in light of our guidance whilst ensuring that protection for consumers entering into new contracts takes effect as early as reasonably possible.

1.30 For existing contracts, GC9.6 will continue to apply as it does now. Any question regarding whether a price increase meets the material detriment requirement will be considered on a case by case basis.

1.31 In all cases, we will monitor compliance with GC9.6 and consider taking enforcement action where necessary.

It is unclear as to whether EE are are either referring to "Guidance on unfair terms in contracts for communications services" as being a recent document, which it is not or referring to "Price rises in fixed term contracts Decision to issue Guidance on General Condition 9." a recent document which is clear with its intent that the guidance only applies to "new contract" Either way EE are manipulating the content of the guidance and Ofcoms comments.

Even the clearer meaning of the change offered by EE in the defence, it is still not made clear that the inflation rate they can reference has been amended under the new T&C.

claireb1

This is the short reply to me getting back in touch with them. Hope look in to it.

Thank you for your email. I have referred this matter back to the adjudicator and will revert back to you upon receipt of a response.

Mikmonken

claireb1 wrote: »

This is the short reply to me getting back in touch with them. Hope look in to it.

Thank you for your email. I have referred this matter back to the adjudicator and will revert back to you upon receipt of a response.

How long ago did you email them? and what did you say in the end? this will help us establish what works and what doesn't

[Deleted User]

Hi all,
I had my claim heard in the county court and I was lost. An order to pay additional money was also approved.
I was not expected that to happen before I entered the court room, but as soon as I went in I knew I was gonna lose.
There is one question I really would like to ask, if anyone could possibly answer it for me please? Did the "judge" ever read the contents of all documents sent in before the hearing? I was quite shock when the judge asked what exactly I was claiming when it was clearly written on the paper?
Back to the topics, when I was in the room, after the defendant gave a brief summary of what the claim was about, the judge looked at me 5 times when he spoke about whether any party having no possibility of winning the case, at that moment I knew I was not going to win straight away.
The judge just said that the company simply narrowed the scope and they have the option to do so. And when the defendant talking about the penny increases every month, his face was like "ahh?....!" Basically every point I raised was fight back by the Judge rather than the defendant. And the judge just kept saying he cannot see the connection, there is no material detriment and the company has the option to change; and it is just a few pennies increased etc. Well, what more can I say?
I was prepared to lose as I did not fully prepare myself for the hearing however the battle in my opinion was not a fair battle. I do not even know why I was there to be honest, it just seems that a decision was already made way before the hearing started. I do not mind to pay the extra or court fees etc and I thank RC very much for helping us on this. I just cannot understand why so many people here have won their cases, but the judge just seems that he think the claim was completely worthless and "waste of time".

Mikmonken

I'm gutted for you mate, you can always contest the outcome, but to be honest that would just be more money and generally judges stick together on this kind of thing. I think you may have reached the end of the road.

[Deleted User]

Mikmonken wrote: »

I'm gutted for you mate, you can always contest the outcome, but to be honest that would just be more money and generally judges stick together on this kind of thing. I think you may have reached the end of the road.

Thank you for your prompt response.
It is alright. I do not mind paying, my budget for the whole process was £200.00 and I think it still falls into that range. Like what I have said earlier I was prepared to lose anyway. But just the experience I had in the court really "disgusts" me to be honest. I felt that I was not only against the company, but also the judge. Every single point I raised was fight back with the same answers like "they have the option to do so, they just simply narrowed the scope, it just few pennies!!" I was never expected the court would be on my side though I also never ever expected that the whole hearing was like this. The company did change the terms although they claimed they have the option to do so, and the changes will definitely make the customers' finance worse off even just for few pennies. Why should the company allow to do so? What is the right of a customer? In the end it is a fixed contract we signed for! And considering how many people here have won their cases, there must be something wrong with the changes! I have to say, the attitudes of the judge did annoy me a lot.

Maccadinho25

Just goes to show that general incompetence goes all the way to the top!

As you say the judge cant have read all the documentation as all of RCs research and knowledge clearly shows the issue here - unlucky mate

jocklatic

[quote=[Deleted User];66799601]Thank you for your prompt response.
It is alright. I do not mind paying, my budget for the whole process was £200.00 and I think it still falls into that range. Like what I have said earlier I was prepared to lose anyway. But just the experience I had in the court really "disgusts" me to be honest. I felt that I was not only against the company, but also the judge. Every single point I raised was fight back with the same answers like "they have the option to do so, they just simply narrowed the scope, it just few pennies!!" I was never expected the court would be on my side though I also never ever expected that the whole hearing was like this. The company did change the terms although they claimed they have the option to do so, and the changes will definitely make the customers' finance worse off even just for few pennies. Why should the company allow to do so? What is the right of a customer? In the end it is a fixed contract we signed for! And considering how many people here have won their cases, there must be something wrong with the changes! I have to say, the attitudes of the judge did annoy me a lot.[/QUOTE]

Ippy
Sorry to hear your claim didn't succeed & the poor Judge you seem to have had listening to your case. from your account of proceedings it does seem like he had already made his mind up. The contract increase may well only be 'pennies' in the judges/ EE eyes but those 'pennies' amount to a fair few thousand when you include all their customers. It may well be that RC & other more informed posters on here may be able to help others when they are due to the SCC??? Hopefully if nothing else then you have cost EE some of their valuable profits to defend their unjust increases :beer:

[Deleted User]

Maccadinho25 wrote: »

Just goes to show that general incompetence goes all the way to the top!

As you say the judge cant have read all the documentation as all of RCs research and knowledge clearly shows the issue here - unlucky mate

Hi Maccadinho25,

To be frank there were some occasions that I almost laughing out louder in the court as no matter what I said: changes made to terms, not just price rises, differences between rpi and cpi in the long term etc, the judge just kept saying that the company has the option to do so, they just narrowed the scope, a few pennies increase etc. I really do not know what is the point for me to be there if the judge already determines that they have the right to do it. Also every time I spoke, I could always sense his impatience. It just felt like he did not really want to listen (or even care) what I said; and I was there somehow just to waste his "precious" time. And this actually began as soon as I walked into the court room. The whole hearing was almost just between me and the judge rather than between me and the defendant. In the end when the he asked me what else I would like to say, I just said I have nothing more to say as clearly no matter what I said, it changed nothing on the outcome.