PCM Ticket

shredx80

Sorry. Did I say something wrong?

Redx

shredx80 wrote: »

Sorry. Did I say something wrong?

my point is you are not doing the basic checks , its like 20 questions where you havent read the signs, havent read the pcn , havent checked if its the IPC or popla, havent checked how to appeal , dont appear to have read the newbies thread where the info is situated,

your permit wasnt on display , hence the pcn, this breaks their rules, its not about having one , its about not displaying it (like your road tax disc) - hence the ticket

you will find the IPC and IAS much more difficult to deal with and not much info exists about them compared to the BPA and POPLA yet you ask 20 questions about them and all these procedures as if we should know (we dont work for them)

so if you want to know about IPC policy, google it and find out, thats my point here

if you want to know about appealing to a PPC, check their paperwork and website

we will help you, but you are not helping yourself by asking how to appeal, what the IPC say on a PPC sending back the acknowledgement or their decision on your appeal etc

due diligence, and do the prep work, thats all we ask, and I am not seeing any of it, sorry (seems to be a common theme today having read a few threads and replied in some)

Coupon-mad

shredx80 wrote: »

Sorry. Did I say something wrong?

No - this forum can get a bit stressed at the seams sometimes and Redx was just a bit frustrated after lots of similar threads today all asking stuff that's already here. Most of the stuff you were asking one by one, is already in the Newbies thread pretty much and it was a bit surprising to be asked about POPLA when you could see at a glance form the ticket that this PPC are not a BPA member so POPLA doesn't apply at all, nor do 28 day deadlines (the IPC has a different code of practice and shorter 21 day deadlines for appeals stages). And to be fair to Redx, you said you 'cannot understand the section that states to wait until my company receives an NTK before appealing' when in fact that's the opposite of what the Newbies thread specifically tells company car drivers.

But never mind let's try to resolve this! Sorry to say, PCM cases are very easy to lose at IAS stage and you will have less than 21 days to research the appeal needed, once you get the rejection email or letter from PCM. I reckon they will reject it quickly.

So get on the case now:

1 - I would 'search this forum' (using the heading next to 'forum tools' on the right of page one above the top thread) for the keywords 'PCM IAS appeal' and see the recent threads discussing this approach we are working on. You will find unfortunately that an IAS appeal is a 'work in progress' on this forum but we have won some recently. It's like presenting a court defence with lots of annotated attached 'exhibits' (evidence) and WILL NOT be won by showing that pic of your permit which wasn't displayed...

2 - I would if I were you, read the IPC Code of Practice and see if you can find anything to trip PCM up on. Start gathering anything you can for your IAS appeal.

3 - Any chance that they've left some old BPA signs up anywhere? Or other ones that contradict anything on that sign?

4 - Any chance the PCN was issued on the Saturday or Sunday? Seeing as the sign only says 'enforcement 9-5 Mon-Friday (they will have deliberately rocked up on Bank Holiday Monday of course, looking for resident victims and visitors with no permit).

I think you might struggle with this one as you have got 'new' IPC signs there and they have evidence no permit was displayed - and you didn't wait for the Notice to Keeper as it's a company car, so you don't even have the option of saying 'no keeper liability' and tearing the wording of the NTK apart. Not the best combo but we'll do our best to help you, of course, if you do the groundwork of reading up on recent PCM cases on here and what other people put in their appeals.

And - bottom line - you need to know the decision is not binding upon you if you lose - no-one here will tell you to pay! If anything a court defence v PCM would be easier than IAS in some ways because ('allegedly' and all that jazz) they are not exactly showing themselves to be 'unbiased' in our humble opinion.

shredx80

In case anyone is interested, I made my appeal to the IAS using relevant template points and case-related information.
In my case, I was able to intercept the ticket inspector & produce my valid parking permit for my own registered bay from my vehicle outside my property. A photo of the valid permit was taken by the ticket inspector not 30 seconds after he had taken a photo of the dashboard. A photo of my valid permit on my dashboard even forms part of the PCM photographic evidence.

The IAS rejected my appeal.

The response reads as follows...

"The appellant raises a number of well rehearsed arguments, which are almost all without merit & which I will deal with in turn.
Possession of valid permit is not sufficient. By parking on land managed by the Operator, the appellant is entering into a contract. In return for being allowed to park, the appellant agrees to abide by the terms. The terms dictate a valid ticket should be displayed in the front windscreen. The photographs show, and the appellant accepts that the permit is not displayed. Another term of the contract is that in absence of a clearly displayed ticket a charge is payable. The charge is therefore an agreed term of the contract., specifically the price the appellant agreed to pay for parking and not damages for breech of contract or trespass.
Consequently, pre-estimate of loss does not apply.
PCM has provided evidence to me as adjudicator that they have a contract with the landowner. Whilst I have sympathy with the appellant's genuine error in failing to display their permit, this appeal can only consider the law of contract & not extenuating circumstances"

£100 fine for parking in my own bay. Awesome.

Dee140157

Ah, we expected you to come back once you got the rejection from PCM. Appeals to the IAS need a very different approach. And one we are beginning to get a handle on. As we had no input in the IAS appeal, it is hard to say what went wrong, but template points do not do well.

So the next this is to remember the IAS decision is not binding on you. You do not have to pay. They can send you lots of threatening letters and then perhaps try to take you to court. However PCM only appear to have been to court a couple of times and that may well be because someone took them to court.

I personally think them trying to take you to court for parking in your own space would be a very dodgy decision for them, so my advice would be now to ignore any and all further correspondence unless you get and. LBA. (A real one not a debt collector letter threatening one. )

shredx80

Many Thanks.

Are there examples of official court summons or do they vary from solicitors etc?

Coupon-mad

Did you miss what I said above, as you never came back: ''And - bottom line - you need to know the decision is not binding upon you if you lose - no-one here will tell you to pay! If anything a court defence v PCM would be easier than IAS in some ways because ('allegedly' and all that jazz) they are not exactly showing themselves to be 'unbiased' in our humble opinion.''

It's not a 'summons', you don't get summoned to appear, it's not a crime. You can see a MoneyClaimOnline example of a ParkingEye court claim (the most prolific PPC) all over this forum or just by Googling and searching for images. It is obvious if you get actual court papers IMHO. It's just a claim for money PCM say you owe, and you would say 'no I don't and here is my evidence why not'. That's it. No big costs, no solicitor needed. Have you seen that Judge Rinder on TV? It's slightly like that by all accounts but with an important paperwork and procedural trail to get right in the build up.

IMHO there is no point paying PCM but it's a shame you didn't ask for more help for that IAS appeal - saying you had a permit was pointless, saying there was no GPEOL was pointless too. It wasn't a POPLA appeal, they are completely different, as I alluded to in post #24 where I said ''Sorry to say, PCM cases are very easy to lose at IAS stage.'' I was hoping you would have come back with the answers to the points I raised so we could have worked to help you to win the IAS appeal (which we have been doing recently).

Having said all that, I can't recall PCM winning a small claim where a forum defence has been supplied - and they haven't had a small claim case I have seen all year. They are ex-clampers and not the sharpest tools in the box, you would have every chance and more, against them in front of a Judge. And we'd help with pointing you to defence wording & cases as your evidence, but this time, come back beforehand, when you need help, not after!