Euro Car Parks PCN (ALDI Finchley)

El_Cheapo

Hi Everyone,

I'm going through the Newbies threads and trying to familiarize myself with the whole process but would like some input on the following:

Last Saturday (16 August) I went to do my shopping at the Aldi store (Finchley - London), and parked my car at one of the Aldi's allocated spaces (Shared "Euro Car parks" car park for Aldi and other building tenants) .

Did my shopping and on my return, I had the PCN from euro car parks.

The reason of the PCN (Spoke to the guy that issued me the ticket) was for not purchasing a £1 ticket and displaying it, for using the parking space as an Aldi customer.


The details:

There where various "Pay and Display" sign in many various places, but in front of the Parking space that I used it only said "Aldi Customers". No indication of any costs or time limitations or nothing associating the "Pay and display" signs with the "Aldi customer parking" sign. I did not go to the ticket machine to check if I had to pay anything for using the space.

I've contacted Aldi customer services and the Manager of the store, and told me that they cannot help me because they have no control over Euro car parks (Only ParkingEye) and to appeal directly to Euro car parks.

Evidence I have:

- I took a picture of my car showing my registration number and the sign saying "Aldi customers".
- I kept the receipt from the store that proves that I was a genuine Aldi customer.

The truth is that I did see many signs saying "pay and display", but I didn't pay any attention to them as I understood Aldi customers get their allocated parking for no cost.


Based on the above:

1) Do I try to appeal (will this be the soft appeal as per the guides?) on the Euro car parks website or wait for the NTK (Notice to keeper) after the 28 days and no later than 56 days of issuing the PCN?

2) If appeal rejected - Request POPLA code? Any time limits?

3) If POPLA received - draft POPLA appeal and post here for further advice before submitting? Any time limits?

4) Send to POPLA (any time limits?)

5) POPLA decision?



Last questions:

Is this a very time consuming process?
I do not want to pay as I feel I've done nothing wrong, but haven't decided yet if its worth taking the hit of £40, while I have the time (payment within 14 days of issue), and save the time of the whole appealing process if very time consuming...

Many thanks

Herzlos

Wait for the NTK, appeal (say whatever you want, it'll get rejected anyway, but make it clear it's an appeal and you expect a POPLA code), when it's rejected appeal to POPLA using the information in the newbies thread.

Guys_Dad

1. Don't pay.
2. Yes, it can be time consuming but if you don't want to waste time, go to parkingappeals website and for £16 they make it go away. But you can do it for yourself with our help.

3. Please post up a photo of the P & D signs and the ALDI Customers signs to see if we can use them rather than the normal "technicalities" appeal points.

El_Cheapo

Thank you both for the replies!

I would consider the £16 website.

Is it this one: parkingticketappeals.org.uk
Any good or bad experiences from the above website?

I don't have any "Pay and display" signs pictures - only the one displaying my car and the Aldi sign.

I'll try and upload it later today.

If I was to go ahead with the appeal myself with the forum's help, do you have any soft and POPLA appeal examples relevant to my case to check?

Thanks again

Redx

what happened on the day tends to be irrelevant, so although post #1 has the template letter , post #3 has links to various appeals that can be adapted to suit , but you wont find hundreds of template letters or appeals that suit each and every case

yes that website is correct

its run by 2 forum regulars here so you can trust them to deal with it for £16

1) Do I try to appeal (will this be the soft appeal as per the guides?) on the Euro car parks website or wait for the NTK (Notice to keeper) after the 28 days and no later than 56 days of issuing the PCN?

2) If appeal rejected - Request POPLA code? Any time limits?

3) If POPLA received - draft POPLA appeal and post here for further advice before submitting? Any time limits?

4) Send to POPLA (any time limits?)

5) POPLA decision?

1) wait for NTK (29 to 56 days) and then appeal as RK it to the PPC with template appeal

2) if appeal is rejected a popla code should be given in the rejection

3) you then have up to 28 days to appeal to popla, the newbies thread has a code checker that gives you the actual expiry date from the code

4) 28 days or less to appeal to popla, no late submissions or excuses

5) 5 to 8 weeks later on average, but can take longer

Dee140157

There are lots of examples of successful appeals to Parking Eye on here, so it isn't too onerous to do appeal yourself.

Coupon-mad

El_Cheapo wrote: »

I don't have any "Pay and display" signs pictures - only the one displaying my car and the Aldi sign.

I'll try and upload it later today.

If I was to go ahead with the appeal myself with the forum's help, do you have any soft and POPLA appeal examples relevant to my case to check?

Thanks again

The first appeal is the pre-written template (short or long version) as shown in the Newbies thread post #1, no need to change it at all so takes about 5 minutes flat to copy & paste that appeal. If you want you could add an extra point 'here is the receipt from an occupant of the car which shows they were genuine customers'. The template already mentions unclear signage so wouldn't need tweaking unless you want to add 'here is a photo of the sign which just said ''Aldi Customers'' and set no other terms'.

The only thing not to do is to inadvertently say who was driving so not 'here is a copy of my receipt/I was a genuine shopper'!

If ECP are not scared off by that template - and lots of PPCs are - then the POPLA appeal is simply a matter of using a suitable 'windscreen ticket' template, changing the PPC to Euro Car Parks, using a version adapted from post #3 of the Newbies thread in the link 'How to win at POPLA'. Again - might take you half an hour seeing as I've told you exactly where to look (people take longer when they pointlessly faff around reading all sorts of other old threads just because they are about the same PPC, which isn't needed).

If that's not worth your while then other private parking appeals firms are available for less money (I am involved with one). PTAS not recommended and that's not just me saying it...

El_Cheapo

Hi All,

NTK received within the legal specified timeframe.

I will be sending the following template letter to them (Copy pasting the long version from the stickies thread):




"Euro Car Parks Ltd
30 Dorset Square
London
NW1 6QJ



Dear Sirs

Re: PCN No. xxxxxxxxxxxxxx

I have received your parking 'invoice' impersonating a parking ticket. I decline your invitation to pay or name the driver, neither of which are required of me as the keeper of the vehicle. This is my appeal and all liability to your company is denied on the following basis:


A) The amount is neither a genuine tariff/fee for parking, nor is it based upon any genuine pre-estimate of loss to your company or the landowner.
You are not the landowner and do not have the standing to offer contracts to drivers nor to bring a claim in your own right.
C) Your signage was not sufficiently prominent nor clearly worded and consideration did not flow from both parties, so there was no contract formed. This is a non-negotiated and totally unexpected third party 'charge' foisted upon legitimate motorists who are not your customers and are not parties of equal bargaining power. Therefore ALL terms are required to be so prominent and the risk of a charge so transparent that the information in its entirety must have been seen/accepted by the driver. No reasonable person would have accepted such onerous parking terms and I contend the extortionate charge was not 'drawn to his attention in the most explicit way' (Lord Denning, Thornton v Shoe Lane Parking Ltd [1971] 2 QB 163, Court of Appeal): 'The customer is bound by those terms as long as they are sufficiently brought to his notice beforehand, but not otherwise. In {ticket cases of former times} the issue...was regarded as an offer by the company. That theory was, of course, a fiction. No customer in a thousand ever read the conditions. In order to give sufficient notice, it would need to be printed in red ink with a red hand pointing to it - or something equally startling.'

As you have failed to create any enforceable contract I suggest that you cancel this unjustified 'ticket'. If not, under your Trade Body's current Code of Practice you must issue a rejection letter which, in order to answer my appeal, must include:


1. The legal basis of your charge, which is not clear (i.e. breach, trespass or contractual fee?). As keeper, I cannot be expected to guess the basis of your allegation.
(i) if alleging breach of contract, please supply a breakdown of your alleged 'loss' and state the intention of your enforcement (i.e. deterrent or revenue?).
(ii) if alleging trespass, enclose evidence of the perpetrator, proof of the liquidated damages alleged and the calculation of this sum by the landholder.
(iii) if alleging 'contractual fee' I request a VAT invoice by return and your explanation of how you can allow drivers to park 'in breach' for a fee when your client originally contracted you in order to disallow and deter - not allow and profit from - unauthorised parking. I contend this charge is merely a penalty which is not recoverable in contract law (as found by Mr Recorder Gibson QC in the case of Civil Enforcement v McCafferty 3YK50188 (AP476) 21/2/2014 Appeal). Should you try to rely upon ParkingEye v Beavis & Wardley at independent appeal stage, I will of course point out that it was a flawed decision at small claim level so is not binding, and Mr Beavis is continuing his defence to the Court of Appeal. There is clearly no commercial justification for this punitive charge and no case law to support it.


2. Proof of your locus standi to offer contracts to drivers at this site and to bring a claim in your own right for this particular contravention. If you are not the landowner, I will need to see a copy of your contract, showing the restrictions, the charges, the dates and terms of business including any payments between yourself and your client and the definition of your status as agents or contractors and your assigned rights (if any). Such detail is necessary for me to make an informed decision. Failure to divulge your landowner contract (or heavily redacting it) will be deemed as withholding pertinent information and, of course, I will require it to be shown at independent appeal stage anyway. A witness statement will not suffice, nor a site agreement with a managing agent or other party who is not the landowner.


3. Your explanation of the consideration that you believe flowed from the driver, and from yourselves. Consideration from both sides is required for a contract.


4. A copy of the signage site map and close-up pictures of the signs in situ at the time, taken at a comparable time of day in similar light conditions.


5. The means to make an appeal to POPLA or the IAS. This must not be withheld or delayed, which would be a breach of the Code of Practice.


If you fail to simply cancel the charge or supply the means to independent appeal in your first reply you will also be reported to your applicable ATA and the DVLA. A certificate of posting will be obtained for all written communications for this appeal and complaint and I intend to claim my costs when I prevail.

Yours,


Name - Signature
——————————————————————"





A couple of questions before sending this:

1) Is this ok to send or should i send the short version letter (no difference I would assume but worth asking the question)?

FYI, the NTK is referring to "Failure to adhere to signage on site".


2) How do I keep proof of sending this for future reference? Send it as "tracked and signed for"? Do I make a scanned copy for myself before sending the original to Euro Car Parks?


3) Do I include in this letter a copy of their parking ticket and or/ a copy of the drivers ALDI shopping receipt at the time of the event?


4) Anything else I'm might be missing?



Many thanks,

El_Cheapo

Coupon-mad wrote: »

The first appeal is the pre-written template (short or long version) as shown in the Newbies thread post #1, no need to change it at all so takes about 5 minutes flat to copy & paste that appeal. If you want you could add an extra point 'here is the receipt from an occupant of the car which shows they were genuine customers'. The template already mentions unclear signage so wouldn't need tweaking unless you want to add 'here is a photo of the sign which just said ''Aldi Customers'' and set no other terms'.

The only thing not to do is to inadvertently say who was driving so not 'here is a copy of my receipt/I was a genuine shopper'!

If ECP are not scared off by that template - and lots of PPCs are - then the POPLA appeal is simply a matter of using a suitable 'windscreen ticket' template, changing the PPC to Euro Car Parks, using a version adapted from post #3 of the Newbies thread in the link 'How to win at POPLA'. Again - might take you half an hour seeing as I've told you exactly where to look (people take longer when they pointlessly faff around reading all sorts of other old threads just because they are about the same PPC, which isn't needed).

If that's not worth your while then, yep, we know PTA can be trusted to simply do it for you, for £16, no strings and they take the silly thing away from you (I won't say 'take the risk' because there isn't one!).

El_Cheapo wrote: »

Hi All,

NTK received within the legal specified timeframe.
............
............
............

A couple of questions before sending this:

1) Is this ok to send or should i send the short version letter (no difference I would assume but worth asking the question)?

FYI, the NTK is referring to "Failure to adhere to signage on site".


2) How do I keep proof of sending this for future reference? Send it as "tracked and signed for"? Do I make a scanned copy for myself before sending the original to Euro Car Parks?


3) Do I include in this letter a copy of their parking ticket and or/ a copy of the drivers ALDI shopping receipt at the time of the event?


4) Anything else I'm might be missing?



Many thanks,

Any feedback regarding my 4 questions?

Many thanks,

Coupon-mad

1. Either of them (or the new even shorter version now in the Newbies thread). Doesn't matter!

2. NOT signed-for. Free certificate of posting slip from the PO Counter at your local corner shop. Keep it with a printed copy of your appeal, that's all you need.

3. Yes, the receipt. As in post #7 - ''If you want you could add point 'here is the receipt from an occupant of the car which shows they were genuine customers'.''

4. Nothing else. This is easy peasy and you will win at POPLA. Don't say who was driving when you talk about that receipt. NOT 'my receipt'.

El_Cheapo

Thank you Coupon-Mad.

I'll update the thread once I receive the POPLA code.