Ex DWP staff set up advice site to help those with sanctions

BillJones

Housing_Benefit_Officer wrote: »

If MPs can use legal loopholes and tax avoidance schemes and get away with it why shouldn't I?

Because if society takes their moral guidance from the most flawed in each area, then we all end up screwed.

Saying "but someone else does it" is a child's argument, not the sort of moral justification that an adult should try to use.

tomtontom

dippy3103 wrote: »

So it's an expense associated with your diagnosis.

It is - respite is a reasonable need/ expense for most chronic conditions.

Housing_Benefit_Officer

BillJones wrote: »

Because if society takes their moral guidance from the most flawed in each area, then we all end up screwed.

Saying "but someone else does it" is a child's argument, not the sort of moral justification that an adult should try to use.

But why should I pay more tax than I have to?

BillJones

Housing_Benefit_Officer wrote: »

But why should I pay more tax than I have to?

You were not talking about paying what you should, yo uwere talking about "fiddling the system". You wrote,

I look towards our elected Members of Parliament for my moral compass when it comes to tax issues. If the people who make the laws can fiddle the system use loopholes and tax avoidance and get away with it then it must be good enough for us to follow.

If you now are saying that you don't fiddle your taxes, then that's good, but is not what I was arguing against.

You do not "get away with" legal acts.

missapril75

BillJones wrote: »

Then I do hope that you don't use formal logic in your day job

What day job? (Nor night job) :j

rogerblack

BillJones wrote: »

I look towards our elected Members of Parliament for my moral compass when it comes to tax issues. If the people who make the laws can fiddle the system use loopholes and tax avoidance and get away with it then it must be good enough for us to follow.

You were not talking about paying what you should, yo uwere talking about "fiddling the system". You wrote,



If you now are saying that you don't fiddle your taxes, then that's good, but is not what I was arguing against.

You do not "get away with" legal acts.

Tax avoidance is quite legal.
You know you're going to earn ten million pounds in the next year.
It is routine for people in this position to first consult an accountant as to how to minimise their tax bills.
The accountant will take a few thousand or tens of thousands, and come up with some fancy scheme that is on the margins of the law, but is reasonably defensible to the point that you'll get away with it 95% of the time.

If you don't - then worst case is that you have to pay the 'normal' amount of tax you would have had to anyway. and the prime minister stands up and calls you 'morally wrong'.

If you do, then woo! You've just not paid several million pounds of tax.

Tax evasion is quite different legally - this is flat-out-lying about your tax position - for example misreporting your income. This is illegal, and you go to prison.

Tax avoidance is a fun game for the wealthy.

As to 'should claimants stop taking advantage of loopholes in benefit and deal with the spirit of the law' - well - great. Government first.

FBaby

It is - respite is a reasonable need/ expense for most chronic conditions.

Many people are at breaking point for various reasons and could do with some respite. Many of those people don't think it should entitle them to benefits and pay for it out of their own income.

mattcanary

rogerblack wrote: »

Tax avoidance is quite legal.
You know you're going to earn ten million pounds in the next year.
It is routine for people in this position to first consult an accountant as to how to minimise their tax bills.
The accountant will take a few thousand or tens of thousands, and come up with some fancy scheme that is on the margins of the law, but is reasonably defensible to the point that you'll get away with it 95% of the time.

If you don't - then worst case is that you have to pay the 'normal' amount of tax you would have had to anyway. and the prime minister stands up and calls you 'morally wrong'.

If you do, then woo! You've just not paid several million pounds of tax.

Tax evasion is quite different legally - this is flat-out-lying about your tax position - for example misreporting your income. This is illegal, and you go to prison.

Tax avoidance is a fun game for the wealthy.

As to 'should claimants stop taking advantage of loopholes in benefit and deal with the spirit of the law' - well - great. Government first.

I think that the taw laws are so complicated and situations sometimes so open to different interpretaions, that it means that the whole system is open to all sorts of abuse.
The staff at HMRC don't probably know the full ins and outs of some aspects of the tax laws without doing a lot of research first.

dippy3103

Not wishing to sound pious but surely dishonest acts are plain wrong irrespective of it being benefits, tax or expenses.

The whole MP thing does annoy me. I agree it's utterly wrong that they cheat and lie when it comes to expenses and they should lead by example. If caught they are in a position of trust which is an aggravating factor when the courts consider what to do with them.

However there are 650 MP's in the country and who knows how many millions of people in receipt of means tested benefits. MP's do need sorting out (and they are not all at it- their expenses are public information) but the potentially greater loss to the public purse is benefit fraud (or Tax evasion). So whilst when an MP fiddles their expenses it's a serious criminal matter, let's not over blow how wide spread it is.

Though I have to concede that anyone in a position of public trust should feel the full weight of the criminal law if they breach that trust. I certainly understand that if I were to defraud/abuse my position I would be held to account and rightly so.