tips in restaurants - moral question

Nick_C

nellytheelephant wrote: »

I'm happy to let the people that want to leave a tip to do it. Waitresses etc that I know see them as fools who have more money than sense.

Well the waitresses "etc" that you know must either work in restaurants where a service charge is added to the bill, in which case an additional tip is unnecessary, or perhaps they are so bad at their jobs that they think anyone who tips them is a fool.

The waitresses that I know work hard for their tips, expect them, and wouldn't be able to manage without them. They look on their customers with gratitude, not disdain.

Nick_C

Re the issue of tax on tips. Tips that waiting staff keep are taxable income.

To quote from HMRC:-

If you get cash tips direct from the customer without involving the employer, you'll have to pay tax on them - but not National Insurance contributions. You are responsible for telling HMRC about these tips and you'll have to show them on your Self Assessment tax return (if you fill one in). You'll need to keep a record of the tips you get so you can do this.

Most people don't have to fill in a tax return. If you don't, HMRC will estimate the tips you're likely to get and give you a tax code that will collect the tax through PAYE. Get in touch with HMRC if you think the estimate is wrong.

System

I usually tip 10%, that tends to go down if this service is poor (usually 50p per bad thing they do it can also go up if the service is better than standard)

When i worked in a nightclub we did get tips occasionally but they were never expected, just a nice extra. I now work in retail and obviously don't get tips, and we can quite often do 10/12 hour shifts and deal with rude customers but i accept thats just the way the industry is and don't expect extra for it. Hospitaity has always had different rules about tipping

PenguinJim

Faith177 wrote: »

Just added my comments on this one

You tip mechanics and hairdressers but don't tip supermarket staff? I worked very hard for very little money when I worked in a supermarket. It's not nice to hear that someone carrying a few plates of food to your table or someone putting a coffee in a cup for you would get a multiple-£ tip while I'd unload a dozen palettes against a strict timescale and have the items stacked neatly and correctly on shelves for minimum wage without so much as a "thank you" from customers.

Arbitrary.

People are advised not to give cash directly to people begging on the street, as there's a chance that they'll spend it on drugs or alcohol (alcohol isn't a drug! It's a drink! - Chris Morris). I wonder if there could be some sort of charity set up for the serving staff in restaurants, to make it nice and legal from a tax perspective, and make sure that the staff don't spend it all on smack?

(I assume there's some sort of correlation between giving a pound to a homeless person and giving a pound to a serving person - some sort of you're beneath me, here's some charity intent? Thinking about it, that must absolutely be true - one wouldn't give cash randomly to people on the same "level", and surely anyone on a higher "level" should be, I dunno, paying more tax, and giving money to you? Actually, maybe that's the point of tipping: showing off?)

Astuteboy

Nick_C wrote: »

You should check the local custom and practice, and not just leave 10%. In France and Portugal, you just leave the change. France especially, waiting is seen as a profession, is well paid, and over tipping is seen as condescending and insulting.

Sorry, but that's woefully inaccurate advice and many years out of date. Firstly, a service charge is included in France as part of the price by default. However in addition to that, good restaurants in France are well used to international visitors. Waiters would not and do not take any offence whatsoever to a tip being left and leaving 5-10% is not unusual by any means.

I accept your general point about checking local customs, and I would certainly do that if I was going somewhere unfamiliar, but regarding France, you're not correct.

Faith177

Nick_C wrote: »

Well the waitresses "etc" that you know must either work in restaurants where a service charge is added to the bill, in which case an additional tip is unnecessary, or perhaps they are so bad at their jobs that they think anyone who tips them is a fool.

The waitresses that I know work hard for their tips, expect them, and wouldn't be able to manage without them. They look on their customers with gratitude, not disdain.

Same here at the end of the day without my customers tips or no tips I wouldn't have a job so I remember this when I am serving them and make sure I treat everyone with a high standard of service if I end up with a tip because of it great if not I know I did everything right to the best of my ability

Faith177

PenguinJim wrote: »

You tip mechanics and hairdressers but don't tip supermarket staff? I worked very hard for very little money when I worked in a supermarket. It's not nice to hear that someone carrying a few plates of food to your table or someone putting a coffee in a cup for you would get a multiple-£ tip while I'd unload a dozen palettes against a strict timescale and have the items stacked neatly and correctly on shelves for minimum wage without so much as a "thank you" from customers.

Arbitrary.

People are advised not to give cash directly to people begging on the street, as there's a chance that they'll spend it on drugs or alcohol (alcohol isn't a drug! It's a drink! - Chris Morris). I wonder if there could be some sort of charity set up for the serving staff in restaurants, to make it nice and legal from a tax perspective, and make sure that the staff don't spend it all on smack?

(I assume there's some sort of correlation between giving a pound to a homeless person and giving a pound to a serving person - some sort of you're beneath me, here's some charity intent? Thinking about it, that must absolutely be true - one wouldn't give cash randomly to people on the same "level", and surely anyone on a higher "level" should be, I dunno, paying more tax, and giving money to you? Actually, maybe that's the point of tipping: showing off?)

My mum works for Tesco and I know she is on about £1.50 more than NMW and so are many others in her store and I know my BIL was on £10+ an hour doing night work for Asda so not all supermarker staff on NMW

I use to work in warehouses for two retail outlets Dixons and Argos at Christmas and use to unpack 2 lots of deliveries a day log them on the system and put the items away work 7am-11pm and I found pub work a lot harder than both those jobs but that's just my personal experience.

A few plates is a major understatement I worked in a resturant that would do 500+ covers on a Sunday and because they used cast iron skillets which are not only heavy but red hot you could only carry 2 at a time so a table of 10 people would require 5 trips if you didn't have the ticket out in under 12 minutes including cooking time the manager would be screaming blue murder at you as would the customer. The kitchens are like a sauna often with very poor ventilation so it's no walk in the park trust me.

As for a charity to stop people spending their tips on smack and comparing tips to people begging thanks for the best giggle all morning :rotfl:

At the end of the day if you wanna tip tip if not then don't but from being on both sides of the fence I know that I will always leave someone who has done a good job a tip

PenguinJim

Faith177 wrote: »

...I know that I will always leave someone who has done a good job a tip

You mean, as long as they're only on minimum wage, right? You just implied that you don't tip supermarket staff as they get slightly more than NMW, and outright said that's why you wouldn't tip an insurance broker. (Although you do tip refuse collection executives who earn up to £45k/year for a 24-hour working week..? I thought I might make it through a post in this thread without using the word "arbitrary"... maybe next time!)

I think that would be the awkward part for me. Asking everybody what their hourly salary is, just so that I only tip those on minimum wage.

Voyager2002

Flat_Eric wrote: »

Its interesting how sometimes you put down so much (say £30) for a meal costing £26-£27 something and the establishment doesn't return any change - automatically assumes that's their tip!

If that ever happened to me I would ask for my change, and then not tip at all. Helping yourself to a customer's money is the kind of poor performance that reduces the tip to zero.

Nick_C

Astuteboy wrote: »

Sorry, but that's woefully inaccurate advice and many years out of date. Firstly, a service charge is included in France as part of the price by default. However in addition to that, good restaurants in France are well used to international visitors. Waiters would not and do not take any offence whatsoever to a tip being left and leaving 5-10% is not unusual by any means.

I accept your general point about checking local customs, and I would certainly do that if I was going somewhere unfamiliar, but regarding France, you're not correct.

Well that's the advice that I have received from many friends and family members who live in France, including people who work in restaurants.

Your comment that a service charge is part of the price is pertinent; just as in this country, where a the bill includes a service charge, an additional tip is not necessary.

I'm sure that waiters in tourist restaurants are often tipped by foreigners who don't know any better.

If you actually re-read what I wrote, we are probably not too far apart. My advice was leave the change. And on a bill of €95, I wouldn't be asking for change from €100, which fits in with your 5 to 10 percent.

I have had both French and Portuguese friends restraining me from over tipping in their countries.