Warwick fine for parking in a private car park

andreauk2009

Dee140157 wrote: »

We advise never to ring PPCs. They don't live in the real world of ordinary people with morals.

If they can hook you into paying, fabricate information, twist the truth, make your life a misery they can.

Is there any chance I can post the PCN to check with you the details?

Reading again the first post, it says

Some firms (e.g. Civil Enforcement, Smart Parking and some small PPCs) don't even bother with POFA2012

So technically CEL is not adhering to the POFA, which as far as I understand is a good thing?

To recap:
1) I have a PCN. wait for the NTK. Is there any timeframe when this is supposed to arrive?
2) write the first appeal using either the long letter in the newbie post or the one here http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showpost.php?p=65994090&postcount=12

Should I at this stage post the parking receipt? I don't think so, but am I kind of new to fines.

3) The first appeal with CEL will be ignored / rejected and in no more than 35 days another letter will be returned including a POPLA number.

4) Appeal to POPLA.

However, looking at the diagram, it says "obtain a proof of postage, do not send as a signed for".
If I can't use a signed for, what other method should I use?

Finally, a silly (?) question. Let's assume all appeals go wrong. What are the consequences, both economic and penal?
Wouldn't that cost more than £60 pound, including perhaps a travel to Liverpool where these "parking cowboys" have their main office and will probably file the claim to the court?

Thanks

andreauk2009

Actually, I'm still confused whether mine is a PCN or an NTK. This has been received by post, no windscreen ticket.
But clearly they queried the DVLA database hence they sent the letter to the keeper.

So is mine a PCN (as stated in their doc) or a NTK?

Dee140157

If it arrive by post it Is both the PCN and the NTK. In other words it it the parking charge notice to the keeper.

As it was a camera controlled (ANPR) car park there never was a windscreen ticket. You have got this within the time frame to make it POFA12 compliant. So now is the time to appeal as the registered keeper.

You write the appeal to CEL using the template in the Newbie three post 1. You post it to them Making sure you get a free proof of posting from the post office when you send it. (just in case they claim they never received it. It is amazing how many get lost in the post). If you can email it to them do that too.

Send them a copy of the parking receipt
Explain to them that the BPA Code of practice allows for a period of grace when leaving a car park and that by sending a PCN for an alleged overstay of 1 minute 30 seconds is a clear breach of that. The ticket shows the times you paid for.

[13.4 You should allow the driver a reasonable period to leave the private car park after the parking contract has ended, before you take enforcement action./QUOTE]



You sit back and await a rejection with a POPLA code. You then draft a POPLA appeal and post it for checking. But we will worry about that
After. For now get the first appeal off.

Hope that all helps.

andreauk2009

Dee140157 wrote: »

You post it to them Making sure you get a free proof of posting from the post office when you send it.

Ok, what is this "free" proof of posting. I always sent stuff signed for to be sure that I was having a proof of sending.
But I will double send by both email and letter if needed. Not sure it's an advantage get the appeal lost at this stage, isn't it?

Dee140157 wrote: »

Explain to them that the BPA Code of practice allows for a period of grace when leaving a car park and that by sending a PCN for an alleged overstay of 1 minute 30 seconds is a clear breach of that. The ticket shows the times you paid for.

Well technically the driver "overstayed" 17 minutes since he joined the car park at 12:01 whereas the parking was paid at 12:18.
However the driver was finalising some bits about the visit to the town, hence the delay.
I guess such a detail is irrelevant, and I assume I should go for the 1.5 minutes as mentioned?

Another question. If I'm the keeper, but I don't know the driver, how can I have the parking receipt?
And would they be able to query the insurance database to understand how many registered drivers was allowed to drive the vehicle?

fisherjim

Andrea you are still confusing this as a fine, it's not, these are nasty money hungry scammers who are not bothered about how they get it.

They are not reasonable, or compassionate there can be nothing gained by phoning these people in fact they will just think they have hooked you in and target you more, and from what has been posted on here over the years can get quite nasty and aggressive on the phone.

Follow Dee's excellent advice and resolve yourself to beating this ridiculous speculative invoice as you will most definitely do if you do it the right way.
You are going into this too deeply forget insurance data bases, and you have no liability to name the driver so don't go there either.

Dee140157

Free proof of posting is the receipt you get from the post office when you go in with a letter and ask for a free proof of posting. You usually buy the stamp at the same time! It is not recorded delivery. Don't do that, or signed for as they may just fail to sign for it so it doesn't get delivered.

The law presumes delivery and if you have free proof of posting, then it is presumed delivered several days later.

So for now just go with the standard appeal as per the newbie thread. We can deal with parking times and grace periods and driving around car park to find space at POPLA stage.

Don't worry about receipt at this stage but do keep it. It is perfectly reasonable for you to have asked driver for receipt, you are just appealing as keeper and declining to give drivers name.

And no they can't ask questions of the insurance database. That would be a clear breach of Data Protect Act if the insurance company were to give this information out for no legitimate reason.

andreauk2009

Ok, so I appreciate posts have been already written, but please bear with me posting my version for you to double check.

I kept only those things I was able to fully understand, making a spinned version of the two available? Perhaps I wasted some time, so apologies if this is the case (please let me know which version suits the best considering I will be mailing them).


Dear xxxxxxxx

re PCN number xxxxxxx
Having received your Parking Charge Notice, I decline your invitation to pay or name the driver, neither of which are required of me as the keeper of the vehicle. This is my appeal and all liability to your company is denied on the following basis:

A) The amount is neither a genuine tariff/fee for parking, nor is it based upon any genuine pre-estimate of loss.
You are not the landowner and do not have locus standi.
C) Your signage was not sufficiently prominent nor clearly worded and consideration did not flow from both parties, so there was no contract.
This is a non-negotiated and totally unexpected third party 'charge' foisted upon legitimate motorists who are not your customers and are not parties of equal bargaining power. Therefore ALL terms are required to be so prominent and the risk of a charge so transparent that the information in its entirety must have been seen/accepted by the driver. No reasonable person would have accepted such onerous parking terms and I contend the extortionate charge was not 'drawn to his attention in the most explicit way' (Lord Denning, Thornton v Shoe Lane Parking Ltd [1971] 2 QB 163, Court of Appeal)
D) Having obtained from the driver evidence of the paid parking, it is not clear how "the payment has not been made in accordance to the T&C", which have been not included in your PCN.


If you choose not to cancel this PCN you must issue a rejection letter in reply to my appeal, explaining:
1 The legal basis of your charge. As keeper, I cannot be expected to guess the basis of your allegation; please return evidence of the breach and a copy of the T&C.
If you try to rely upon ParkingEye v Beavis at POPLA, I will point out that it was a flawed decision, it is not binding, and it is set for the Court of Appeal. There is clearly no commercial justification for this punitive charge and no case law to support it.
2 Proof of your locus standi to offer contracts to drivers at this site. If you are not the landowner, I will need to see a copy of your contract, showing the restrictions, the charges, the dates and terms of business including any payments between yourself and your client and the definition of your status as agents or contractors and your assigned rights (if any).
A witness statement will not suffice, nor a site agreement with a managing agent or other party who is not the landowner.
3 Your explanation of the consideration that you believe flowed from the driver, and from yourselves.
4 A copy of the signage site map and close-up pictures of the signs in situ at the time, taken at a comparable time of day in similar light conditions.
5 The means to make an appeal to POPLA, otherwise you will be reported to the BPA and the DVLA.

If you fail to simply cancel the charge or supply the means to independent appeal in your first reply you will also be reported to your applicable ATA and the DVLA. A certificate of posting will be obtained for all written communications for this appeal and complaint and I intend to claim my costs when I prevail.

Yours....

Dee140157

The template in the Newbie thread is written by a very very experienced person and I really do think you should leave everything in. You may not understand it, but every word is in there for a reason.

It has taken me some months to understand why everything is in it, so I appreciate that you may not get it all, but please do not leave anything out.
There is no point re-inventing the wheel!

andreauk2009

Dee140157 wrote: »

The template in the Newbie thread is written by a very very experienced person ....
There is no point re-inventing the wheel!

Yeah. You're right. No point d too (the one I added about the parking ticket?)

Redx

andreauk2009 wrote: »

Yeah. You're right. No point d too (the one I added about the parking ticket?)

yes you can leave that in if you wish , although it doesnt really need to be in there as its asking a question whereas you are appealing for clarity , cancellation or a popla code

no point giving all your cards away as you show your cards at popla

in your later popla appeal, it will be worth citing the case from altrincham where "driving round and parking up, and exiting the actual car park" , do not constitute "parking"

so the vehicle may have been "parked" for 4 hours but was entering and parking + exiting the car park for the remainder of the time, plus not enough "grace period" anyway

the parking charge ticket paid for 4 hours parking, the pcn is different as their definition of parking also includes the messing round before and after (the grace period if you will)

I agree with Dee , just send the template, get the rejection and popla code, then spank them at popla costing them money