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Shaving socket help from sparks needed

2

Comments

  • Yorkie1
    Yorkie1 Posts: 12,237 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Name Dropper Combo Breaker
    You're ignoring what those who know about these things are saying, namely that this is notifiable work under the Building Regs. Hence it needs to be done by a sparky who can certify it under Part P, or it needs to be signed off by the council separately.

    That is what the law says, whether or not you've got sufficient common sense or consider yourself to have sufficient competence.

    As and when you sell your house, what will you do? Lie on the form which asks if you've done any notifiable work? Or get someone in from the council at that point? If the latter, then why not get it done now to current regs so you don't have to worry about it again.
  • andydiysaver
    andydiysaver Posts: 424 Forumite
    Yorkie1 wrote: »
    You're ignoring what those who know about these things are saying, namely that this is notifiable work under the Building Regs. Hence it needs to be done by a sparky who can certify it under Part P, or it needs to be signed off by the council separately.

    That is what the law says, whether or not you've got sufficient common sense or consider yourself to have sufficient competence.

    As and when you sell your house, what will you do? Lie on the form which asks if you've done any notifiable work? Or get someone in from the council at that point? If the latter, then why not get it done now to current regs so you don't have to worry about it again.
    on that last point, when I sell my house everything I've done that falls under that i'll get certified because this is common courtesy, however, if I know I can do a perfectly good job while I'm here, then I'll do it.
  • Quiet_Spark
    Quiet_Spark Posts: 1,093 Forumite
    edited 20 July 2014 at 9:42PM
    I have a good working knowledge of electric, and I understand earth loops, gauges of wire, testing equipment
    I'm not saying you don't have a good working knowledge of basic electrical principles, but unless you are a sparks for a living then I know you won't have the test equipment that is required to complete the job properly.
    For example, your £100 multimeter from maplin will quite happily tell you there is 230v at the socket, but it won't tell you if you have a high R1 (phase conductor resistance) or a high R2 (cpc conductor resistance) because you didn't tighten that terminal enough.
    and I don't make mistakes because it's life and death
    I don't believe that for a minute, we all make mistakes at work and that includes me.
    The difference is that if I inadvertently leave a terminal loose then my meter WILL show the fault before the conductor has a chance to overheat and catch fire.
    but if it was a mate and if It was within my capability I'd do it for them and sleep at night no problem because I've got a good awareness of what I can do well and what I'd draft in help for instead.
    There is absolutely nothing to stop you from wiring your entire house if you so wish, the only difference is that you would have to notify building control BEFORE you commence any work that is classed as "notifiable" and allow them access at various stages to confirm you are doing it right.
    This is law, no if's, but's, or maybe's.

    I'll also add that if the OP's property is rented (council or private) then he has to seek authorisation before any electrical work is carried out, and the landlord WILL want the paperwork at the end if they decide to allow it.
    Understeer is when you hit a wall with the front of your car
    Oversteer is when you hit a wall with the back of your car
    Horsepower is how fast your car hits the wall
    Torque is how far your car sends the wall across the field once you've hit it
  • andydiysaver
    andydiysaver Posts: 424 Forumite
    I'm not saying you don't have a good working knowledge of basic electrical principles, but unless you are a sparks for a living then I know you won't have the test equipment that is required to complete the job properly.
    For example, your £100 multimeter from maplin will quite happily tell you there is 230v at the socket, but it won't tell you if you have a high R1 (phase conductor resistance) or a high R2 (cpc conductor resistance) because you didn't tighten that terminal enough.
    True - but you can get the specialist equipment relatively cheaply these days. Also earth loops increase in threat the longer the route is, I have done a bathroom job, and I paid particular attention to safety - including gauge of wire and where it was routed, very low spur fuse etc, and a pull chord switch.

    I don't believe that for a minute, we all make mistakes at work and that includes me.
    The difference is that if I inadvertently leave a terminal loose then my meter WILL show the fault before the conductor has a chance to overheat and catch fire.
    yes, but you do it more often, so you've got more chance to make a mistake - if I was a spark like you I'd doubtless have a better knowledge like you, but statistics also say I'd make more mistakes because the frequency of work would be increased by several orders of magnitude. I'd wire stuff on bad days, I'd wire stuff tired. As it is I only do anything like that when I'm off work and well rested. This is why I think test equipment is a great thing and I have a lot of it myself - it covers those days if you're a sparky. if fills any gaps in my knowledge because I don't do it for a living. I think we're actually fairly agreed on the importance of test equipment
    There is absolutely nothing to stop you from wiring your entire house if you so wish, the only difference is that you would have to notify building control BEFORE you commence any work that is classed as "notifiable" and allow them access at various stages to confirm you are doing it right.
    This is law, no if's, but's, or maybe's.

    I'll also add that if the OP's property is rented (council or private) then he has to seek authorisation before any electrical work is carried out, and the landlord WILL want the paperwork at the end if they decide to allow it.
    points taken here. like a lot of people on this forum I'm all about saving money because I've got a lot of commitments like the good old mortgage. I'm a computer guy by trade so there's a lot of crossover from what I do into the world of electric and I'd say as a result I'm well above average. That said I know my limits and if I'm in any doubt that I can't, I won't.
  • Quiet_Spark
    Quiet_Spark Posts: 1,093 Forumite
    True - but you can get the specialist equipment relatively cheaply these days.
    All depends on what you call cheap, a certified multi-function tester is still going to stand you in around the £550 mark and then you need to add the cost of a calibration certificate every year.
    Also earth loops increase in threat the longer the route is,
    It's the impedance that increases as the cable gets longer, not the threat of a loop being created. Note that impedance and resistance are not the same thing.

    I have done a bathroom job, and I paid particular attention to safety - including gauge of wire and where it was routed, very low spur fuse etc, and a pull chord switch.
    Did you do the math which would have involved you knowing the length of run, maximum expected load, cable route (ie, is it buried in a wall, mounted in free air, etc), and maximum operating temperature of the cable before energising the circuit?
    As for a low rated fuse, that makes no odds to end user protection against electric shock. The job of the fuse is to protect the circuit it supplies.

    This is why I think test equipment is a great thing and I have a lot of it myself - it covers those days if you're a sparky.
    Does any of your test equipment accurately measure impedances down to a minimum 0.1 ohm while resolving to 2 decimal places?
    I doubt it does, so there is no way you can reliably test an installation at the end.

    like a lot of people on this forum I'm all about saving money because I've got a lot of commitments like the good old mortgage.
    Same here, but let us not forget that one of the OP's first questions was "How do I wire it safely"
    That in itself indicates the OP doesn't have a clue, and is one of the reasons for Part P coming in to force (as well as being the reason for my initial response).
    Understeer is when you hit a wall with the front of your car
    Oversteer is when you hit a wall with the back of your car
    Horsepower is how fast your car hits the wall
    Torque is how far your car sends the wall across the field once you've hit it
  • DavidF
    DavidF Posts: 498 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 100 Posts Combo Breaker
    I have done a bathroom job, and I paid particular attention to safety - including gauge of wire and where it was routed, very low spur fuse etc, and a pull chord switch.
    Far from wanting to "jump in" but the above tells me that bathrooms and the like are EXACTLY the kind of jobs that you really SHOULD call in an expert.
    Did you take note of the zones in the bathroom ? Did you calculate volts drop with your chosen cables ? Did you notify the council ? (If you didn't then you could get fined...But as the local council do not police these things you are pretty much safe from that...UNTIL something goes wrong - That is where the back side covering gang come into action....DIY electrical or gas work can lead to loss of life and can land the DIY man in prison as well as huge fines.
    Just for the record the bathroom is electrically the most dangerous place in your house. Followed closely by the kitchen.
    I am also a fully qualified electrician....but do not usually do domestic (this type of work but I do know how to and im qualified to do so)
  • andydiysaver
    andydiysaver Posts: 424 Forumite
    edited 21 July 2014 at 11:02PM
    aint got the money to pay an expert who will doubtless try and scare the hell out of me to increase the premium, but it does not wash, as I'm well aware of the relationship between water and electricity, I'm no fool, and I'm pretty competent. I'd not do what I couldn't do, if there was a shadow of a doubt I'd not do it, but to say someone cannot educate themselves to a competent standard is almost nanny state in its implications - not wishing to bite back too much just because the tone of your post was in the vein of me knowing jack and that I should pay a man for the simplest of jobs , but this sort of thing spreads the fear and gets you paid more. some people fix their own cars too, I did the brakes on mine the other week, I suppose I need a fully qualified mechanic? No, if the carb went I'd need a fully qualified mechanic! a lot of income streams are guaranteed by fear and exaggeration and the self sufficient man doesn't need his hand holding for everything except the most basic of functions.
  • Risteard
    Risteard Posts: 2,000 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 1,000 Posts Name Dropper
    13 amps isn't safe, 1 amp isn't safe, both can kill you but I know for one thing which line I'd prefer to touch if someone pointed a gun to my head.

    Then that shows how little you understand about electricity. Neither is safer than the other to touch as it will not affect the impedance which is a product of the voltage and the resistance of the human body. So you will receive the same shock from both and neither will disconnect. They are for protection of the cables (not of persons, which is the role of an RCD with a rated residual operating current not exceeding 30mA).
  • Yorkie1
    Yorkie1 Posts: 12,237 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Name Dropper Combo Breaker
    on that last point, when I sell my house everything I've done that falls under that i'll get certified because this is common courtesy, however, if I know I can do a perfectly good job while I'm here, then I'll do it.

    You've missed the point that a sparky will not certify Part P compliance of someone else's work as they cannot see how it has been completed and thus whether it is compliant.

    Therefore, you cannot comply with the B Regs without getting the council in to inspect and issue a certificate. And again you have the issue, mentioned by someone else, that they would want to see how you'd installed it.
  • andydiysaver
    andydiysaver Posts: 424 Forumite
    Risteard wrote: »
    Then that shows how little you understand about electricity. Neither is safer than the other to touch as it will not affect the impedance which is a product of the voltage and the resistance of the human body. So you will receive the same shock from both and neither will disconnect. They are for protection of the cables (not of persons, which is the role of an RCD with a rated residual operating current not exceeding 30mA).
    voltage carries the amperage and you are quite correct that a small amperage will fry - if a 12volt car battery with massive amperage had means to get into the bloodstream eg by connecting it to a pin,and piercing skin, again , fried. so I know perfectly well, and the impedence you refer to is a given isn't it, am I standing in a bath while I do this or am I standing on rubber soled shoes.


    with all conditions equal, lets say I had the rubber soles on, I'd still take the 1amp line above the 13 amp line - why? because amps kill and there are more amps in the 13 amp line before it cuts out. 1 amp can kill just as much but that's like saying I sign up to be hit by a lorry or a fiesta standing in a 70 limit road, makes no difference, but gun to my head I'd pick the fiesta, just in case I got lucky


    getting silly chaps. agree to disagree?
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