NTK from Hospital Tust

Sim_2

So all looking a bit messy.

I have missed the date to appeal or pay anyway, when I say I just got a NTK I mean have just been made aware of the NTK - my wife and I have the same first initial......

What will happen now ? Why was the old advice to ignore changed a while back btw, can't see any explanation in the thread.

Dee140157

When they made clamping illegal, they allowed the parking companies to chase the registered keepers in October 2012 as part of the protection of freedom act. (POFA)

It would be Useful if you have us more information, like how much should you have paid in P&D fee or other reason why you got the PCN. How much are they asking?

When did you receive this? What does the letter you received actually say?

We can only help if we have ALL the facts.

Coupon-mad

Sim wrote: »

So all looking a bit messy.

I have missed the date to appeal or pay anyway, when I say I just got a NTK I mean have just been made aware of the NTK - my wife and I have the same first initial......

What will happen now ? Why was the old advice to ignore changed a while back btw, can't see any explanation in the thread.

The keeper has not missed a chance to appeal, as keeper NOT driver, which is what we were saying to do, as the best option we would say.

More than likely, the more important deadline really missed in law, is that the NHS Trust probably hasn't sent the Enforcement Notice within the right timescale (day 29 to day 56) for keeper liability to apply. Even if they have I'd be willing to bet the wording isn't compliant for keeper liability to apply in law. WHICH IS WHY THE KEEPER CHALLENGES IT.

It's what we tell everyone who gets a Hospital PCN and we see LOADS of NHS Trust ones, here's a couple of recent ones:

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/4938561

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/4956233

...both of them were appealed by the keepers (NOT saying who was driving) and the Facilities Manager contacted to complain, etc. Both are just receiving debt collector letters (no biggie!! debt collectors send letters that's all, they are NOT bailiffs).

So appeal it as we've already said WITHOUT saying who was driving and ask the questions we've already suggested you should ask. For starters a NOTICE TO OWNER is copying a Council PCN and is misleading, and the fact they aren't using an AOS member firm means there is no POPLA so that should be the focus of your challenge, as well as what the money is for. Ask the same questions big_boss did on his thread linked, except you can also ask why they are not signed up to the NHS Parking Charter which would allow vehicle keepers an independent appeal via POPLA. Ask the pertinent questions and make the points I raised above, and ask Myriddin's question about the purpose of the money, is it a fine, etc.

The purpose of challenging it is to state that you are not liable as keeper, and to help them dig their own holes like in big_boss' case.

Or ignore it, seeing as I assume on the 'NTO' they are offering no independent appeal (POPLA or IAS). So ignoring it and the letters that follow is an option.

On this forum for a decade people have ignored debt collector letters. No it doesn't affect credit rating:

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=24362

Your choice really but don't pay. Paying it would be the stupid option.

Myriddin

It's not been mentioned yet but would it be worth contacting PALS (Patient Advice and Liaison Service) and seeing if they will intervene to get the matter quashed? 01273 696955 Ext: 4029

Sim_2

Coupon-mad wrote: »

The keeper has not missed a chance to appeal, as keeper NOT driver, which is what we were saying to do, as the best option we would say.

More than likely, the more important deadline really missed in law, is that the NHS Trust probably hasn't sent the Enforcement Notice within the right timescale (day 29 to day 56) for keeper liability to apply. Even if they have I'd be willing to bet the wording isn't compliant for keeper liability to apply in law. WHICH IS WHY THE KEEPER CHALLENGES IT.....

Thanks for this Coupon-mad, the NTO is dated 65 days after the incident. I am the registered keeper but was not driving the car, the NTO is for failure to display (what should have take 5 minutes took an hour I am told). They were demanding £50 but the 28 days I had to pay this has now expired with the interesting wording that have not heard within 28 of the NTO "the debt will be passed to the Trust's solicitors".

Coupon-mad

Perfect - so as keeper they cannot pin it on you, unless they had proof that it was you who was driving (they don't, even if you work there, they don't know who was driving THAT DAY and if you honestly were not the driver then certainly say so - you are untouchable, their Site/Facilities Manager 'Enforcement Team' just don't realise it). If you want to draft a reply starting: 'I am the registered keeper of vehicle xxxxxx and was very surprised to read in a letter dated over two months after the alleged parking event that you think I am somehow liable for a 'parking charge'. You are mistaken in law, because...'

Show us first, we can help make it strong on the points of 'no keeper liability' and their failings. They will also have failed to word it as per paragraph 8 of Schedule 4 of the POFA 2012, so read that too. It's linked in the NEWBIES thread underneath the first appeal template and the Act is easy to read, paragraph 8 applies.

Sim_2

Coupon-mad wrote: »

Perfect - so as keeper they cannot pin it on you, ....
...Show us first, we can help make it strong on the points of 'no keeper liability' and their failings. They will also have failed to word it as per paragraph 8 of Schedule 4 of the POFA 2012, so read that too. It's linked in the NEWBIES thread underneath the first appeal template and the Act is easy to read, paragraph 8 applies.

Thanks, will do - but since they failed to notify the me within the 59 day window surely that's the end of the argument and nothing else needs to be said?

bazster

Sim wrote: »

Thanks, will do - but since they failed to notify the me within the 59 day window surely that's the end of the argument and nothing else needs to be said?

Will it hurt to make all the relevant points? People involved in private parking "enforcement" rarely behave rationally and things that are obvious and logical to you or I are often lost on them, therefore it's generally advisable to hit them with everything you've got.

Unless of course you are willing to tough it out on the one point alone and dare them to do their worst, which is absolutely fine if you're up for the fight.

Coupon-mad

Sim wrote: »

Thanks, will do - but since they failed to notify the me within the 59 day window surely that's the end of the argument and nothing else needs to be said?

You could if you want to rely on one point which most posters don't, particularly with a Hospital Trust who just won't get it and will think you have to pay the 'fine' just because they've sent out something they are calling a NTO! Also the late NTK won't help you if they think they know who was driving 'on the balance of probabilities'. Because the driver can still be targeted.

That's why in my reply on 11th July I said 'Have a read of the BPA's 'NHS parking charter' below, and ask pertinent questions ...' Those answers could help them dig their own holes even if they reckon they know who was likely to be driving.

Sim_2

OK this is what I have come up to fit the circumstances following the amazing advice and guidance on this forum. Sound about right?


PCN number xxxxxxx

I am the registered keeper of vehicle ******* and was very surprised to read in a letter dated over two months after the alleged parking event that you think I am somehow liable for a 'parking charge'. You are mistaken in law, because the amount is neither a genuine tariff/fee for parking, nor is it based upon any genuine pre-estimate of loss to the landowner.

The legal basis of your charge, is not clear (i.e. breach, trespass or contractual fee?). As keeper, I cannot be expected to guess the basis of your allegation.
(i) if alleging breach of contract, please supply a breakdown of your alleged 'loss' and state the intention of your enforcement (i.e. deterrent or revenue?).
(ii) if alleging trespass, enclose evidence of the perpetrator, proof of the liquidated damages alleged and the calculation of this sum by the landholder.
(iii) if alleging 'contractual fee' I request a VAT invoice by return and your explanation of how you can allow drivers to park 'in breach' for a fee while reporting you are not making a profit from parking.

As you have failed to create any enforceable contract I suggest that you cancel this unjustified 'ticket'.

I would also like to ask why the Trust does not appear to be signed up to the British Parking Association Charter for Hospital Parking, by not following that policy there is no independent POPLA appeal available to a registered keeper as would normally be the case.

There is no mention of the Protection of Freedoms act 21012 in your letter nor was your letter sent within the 56 day deadline defined in the Act. Therefore as registered keeper I accept no liability for this 'ticket'.


Yours,