7/8 year old girls, when they're good, they're very very good, but...

vicker

...when they're bad, they're horrid.

Don't know where to go with my lass.

Love love love her dearly. 95% of the time her behaviour is awesome. It's the 5% which is slowly turning into 6%, 7% which I'd appreciate some advice on.

She basically goes from 0-60mph in her temper. Fine one minute, next thing I know I ask her to pick up her clothes or wash her face - and she is yelling her head off at me, then will very quickly resort to throwing her toys, then trying to kick/hit me. A few times I have had to resort to holding her for 30 minutes for her to calm down.

When I ask her to do these things, the tone of voice/time of day/prior events can all be the same as the previous day when there was no issue at all and she happily got on with the request independently or with a little help.

When she is in, what I call the red mist, there is no reasoning with her and she doesn't care what she loses or misses out on. Positive behaviour charts don't work - she used to refuse stickers from her teacher in Reception/Year 1 as she doesn't like being praised very much. In the past her bedroom has been stripped back of all the fun stuff, toys, books as its been removed due to her choices, and she's got on with the punishment just fine and isn't bothered if it happens again.

The thing which is causing most grief at the moment is it's her birthday tomorrow - her vile behaviour has meant she is no longer having her sleepover. Which she is fine about (having been desperate for it for a fortnight leading up to today). We are very clear in that we say..."if you continue in this behaviour you will not be having...." she is counted down into the decision being made and given a choice of a or b all through. We keep as calm as we can manage.

The thing really concerning me through all this is that I was exactly like it as a child. My mum gave into it and my demands for an easy life, and as a result I could do anything I wanted when I wanted even though it was wholly inappropriate. This caused major issues in the early years of my marriage as OH and I worked through it and I had to learn how to relate to him as someone who loved me completely, but would not do what I wanted when I wanted.

My niece is 20 next month, and whilst my sister has tried to be consistent, my niece aged 7 started displaying typical behaviour like DD is now showing and it has never gone away. She still hits and lashes out at my sister when my sister doesn't do what my niece wants.

Anyone I speak to about it have never had such severe problems with their daughter as I describe to them. And the majority cannot believe I am describing the lovely girl they know - those who get a glimpse of her defiant side can't quite believe it, and the speed with which it appears.

So I've exhausted all my friends asking for tips - they have none besides reward charts/naughty step/smacks/bigging up the achievements/consistency and all the common things we've already worked our way through or rejected before trying as we disagreed they'd be helpful. We've tried teaching anger techniques, but as soon as she's in the red mist the cards/breathing techniques all go out of the window.

So opening it up for wider help please as OH and I are desperate and we're worn down by it all as the incidents have gone from once a month, to once a week to once every couple of days at the moment.

Sorry for the long post - just wanted to give a rounded idea of what we've tried in response to the behaviour she displays.

pukkamum

I was about to respond, before reading through, that my 8 yr old goes from lovely to horrible in zero seconds but it certainly isn't that bad.
How to you deal with the behaviour on a day to day basis?
I have a zero tolerance rule with my daughter, any answering back or flashes of nastiness and she goes to her room for a certain time, no discussion just gone.
I would refrain from restraining her, unless you feel she is in danger of seriously hurting herself, its easy to bruise her and also once in a temper being held tightly can often aggravate the situation.
I do feel that perhaps you are encouraging the behaviour with all the discussion and choice giving, no discussion, no choices a sharp swift punishment is required.
I would be giving no attention whatsoever to the behaviour other than to send her to her room, no shouting no lecturing just a swift exit.
There is no way on earth I would tolerate violence towards myself or anyone else in the family, this would lead to severe punishment.
You say she isn't bothered by your punishments, the cancelling of the party etc but this is just bravado, of course she is bothered she just hopes by pretending it doesn't matter you will give in.

Snakey

My friend's mother used to say to her when she was being a pain, "When you grow up, I hope you have children who are just like you".

You were like this and grew out of it into a reasonable human being - and despite your mother not having responded perfectly. And take comfort from the fact that she doesn't show this side of herself to anyone else - so she can control it, she just chooses not to do so with you.

Do you get the feeling (or a memory from your own childhood) that she genuinely can't control it once she gets to a certain point? Or is the whole thing put on from start to finish? If it's the former, then it might be worth seeing if you/she (probably she, if it's coming out of the blue from your perspective) can identify some triggers so that she can head it off at the pass.

On the subject of consequences, I think sometimes people expect girls to be all sugar and spice and people-pleasers and to be emotional and easily upset in a passive way (especially when given "girls'" punishments, like being sent out of the room or not being allowed to join in) and even when they're naughty all they really want is a hug. It makes life very difficult if you then get one who isn't like that. Lots of girls are incredibly stubborn!

You don't know that your consistency is not working, all you know is that it hasn't sorted out the behaviour yet - but you also don't know what it might have been like if you hadn't bothered. And even if it doesn't work, it might nonetheless be just what she needs. I say stick to it, maybe consider a more immediate removal from the situation at the time (I found as a kid that the longer there was between incident and punishment the more I would associate the punishment with the person rather than with my behaviour, which by then might be quite vague in my mind) but then it can't be so easy at that age because it's not like you can pick them up if they won't go. Might be tempted to remove myself from the situation mind you! Let her yell at herself for a few minutes and then go back in and ask her again like the last time didn't happen. See if you can find her limit to the number of times she can go from 0-60 in quick succession about the same thing!

z.n

First thought was that hormones will probably be at work- if so, don't expect any of it to make any sense. It just is and they will react to the chemical balance of the brain in the moment. 7/8 is slightly earlier than I noticed with my dd but not by much. My dd would not engage directly with me but would do things clearly in direct response to any telling off or forced activity (I am not willing to disclose what things but you would be shocked). To the outside world she is quiet, shy and polite. At home we know the truth!! Just remember you cannot argue sensibly with a raging child- best to do the talking once things calm down.

Are you sure you are not simply dealing with a child trying to find her own way- who she is and what she wants separately to her parent. Consider how much you like being told what to do and how to do it- and then add in a good dose of hormonal resentment. That aggression has to come out somehow and best done at home I think! If your dd has friends and manages not to hit them or throw things at them then I would say the problem is with your parenting style- it may be that you are still treating her (in her eyes) as a young child and you need now to move more to a co-operative style more suited to an older girl. Maybe you are being too strict-and that doesn't suit your dd. This is even more likely if she says a genuine sorry after things calm down. Star charts, naughty step, because I said so's need to be replaced by pick your fights, explain reasons why and give yourself decent room to backtrack when you lose your temper. e g the options should not be 'do this or no party' but ' do this in the next 20 mins or your party time will be reduced by 20 mins.ie follow through but don't make the consequences extreme as it may be that she simply can't control her temper. Give yourself room to always dangle a carrot- the stick will backfire every time and is just as bad as being too permissive I suspect. This is not being soft-it is being sensible and avoiding things going nuclear every few days. It also means keeping your temper and upset under control. No physical pinning down or manhandling- the only time that works is if they are actually really upset about something and covering it with aggression. The aim is to offer strategies for her to be able to control herself and follow instructions designed for her benefit. That is how she will learn to police herself.

I love the idea of sending child to their room-great if they go. If they don't then what do you do? Think clever- say 'I/you need to think about this for a few minutes. I am going to empty the washing machine and we will speak again later' then just walk away. Always give a chance for the child to give in and save face-no need to rub their nose in it. Is it really the end of the world if they don't tidy their room right then etc. It is not about who controls who. Refusing to engage in the argument takes the steam out of it. The key is that you have to keep calm enough to keep ahead of the game. It is a battle of wits so plan ahead. Because it is going to get much much worse! You are entering classic pre-teen you can take the horse to water but you can't make it drink territory.

And smacking never works- don't believe in it, would never advocate it and certainly think it does more harm than good. A tap on the hand in extremis as a small child reaches for plug socket or similar is instinct- but never as punishment.

On the plus side- your dd is working out exactly what she wants, and how she wants it. Just think what an asset that will be as she grows up. She has passion and the wit to run rings round you. She loves you enough to know you won't abandon her come what may or however mean she is to you.

And all this assumes your dd is not having bullying problems at school which she is re-directing onto you (as the safest person around.)

krustylouise

vicker wrote: »

...when they're bad, they're horrid.

Don't know where to go with my lass.

Love love love her dearly. 95% of the time her behaviour is awesome. It's the 5% which is slowly turning into 6%, 7% which I'd appreciate some advice on.

She basically goes from 0-60mph in her temper. Fine one minute, next thing I know I ask her to pick up her clothes or wash her face - and she is yelling her head off at me, then will very quickly resort to throwing her toys, then trying to kick/hit me. A few times I have had to resort to holding her for 30 minutes for her to calm down.

When I ask her to do these things, the tone of voice/time of day/prior events can all be the same as the previous day when there was no issue at all and she happily got on with the request independently or with a little help.

When she is in, what I call the red mist, there is no reasoning with her and she doesn't care what she loses or misses out on. Positive behaviour charts don't work - she used to refuse stickers from her teacher in Reception/Year 1 as she doesn't like being praised very much. In the past her bedroom has been stripped back of all the fun stuff, toys, books as its been removed due to her choices, and she's got on with the punishment just fine and isn't bothered if it happens again.

The thing which is causing most grief at the moment is it's her birthday tomorrow - her vile behaviour has meant she is no longer having her sleepover. Which she is fine about (having been desperate for it for a fortnight leading up to today). We are very clear in that we say..."if you continue in this behaviour you will not be having...." she is counted down into the decision being made and given a choice of a or b all through. We keep as calm as we can manage.

The thing really concerning me through all this is that I was exactly like it as a child. My mum gave into it and my demands for an easy life, and as a result I could do anything I wanted when I wanted even though it was wholly inappropriate. This caused major issues in the early years of my marriage as OH and I worked through it and I had to learn how to relate to him as someone who loved me completely, but would not do what I wanted when I wanted.

My niece is 20 next month, and whilst my sister has tried to be consistent, my niece aged 7 started displaying typical behaviour like DD is now showing and it has never gone away. She still hits and lashes out at my sister when my sister doesn't do what my niece wants.

Anyone I speak to about it have never had such severe problems with their daughter as I describe to them. And the majority cannot believe I am describing the lovely girl they know - those who get a glimpse of her defiant side can't quite believe it, and the speed with which it appears.

So I've exhausted all my friends asking for tips - they have none besides reward charts/naughty step/smacks/bigging up the achievements/consistency and all the common things we've already worked our way through or rejected before trying as we disagreed they'd be helpful. We've tried teaching anger techniques, but as soon as she's in the red mist the cards/breathing techniques all go out of the window.

So opening it up for wider help please as OH and I are desperate and we're worn down by it all as the incidents have gone from once a month, to once a week to once every couple of days at the moment.

Sorry for the long post - just wanted to give a rounded idea of what we've tried in response to the behaviour she displays.

I could've written this post. My DD is 7 in August and she too is either amazing or awful. There is no in between and no reasoning. Afterwards she is very remorseful of her behaviour and apologies profusely, so she knows that it is wrong.

I wouldn't look at your niece and think your DD will turn out the same as parents are different, lifestyles are different and every child is different.

I don't have an answer for you, except be consistent, but you probably are anyway. If you say "you're going to bed early" then you have to follow through, whether this lands you with a 7year old who is screaming and trying to hurt you, then so be it, but the sooner she realises that that behaviour gets her nowhere, hopefully it will start to subside.

Sorry I don't have the answer for you, but know you're not alone x

FBaby

OMG I am so pleased you started this thread because I can so relate to it with my DS, although he is now 11. Like your DD, my DS is a very lovely boy who is always teacher’s pet. His friends’ parents love him and always want to have him over because he is so polite and pleasant…but it’s another matter with me. Like your DD, he is great most of the time, but upon me telling him something he doesn’t want to hear or asking for something that my DD would just get on with, he snaps and turns into an angry child, however gently I speak to him. He then systematically goes into a sulk, and remains grumpy until he suddenly decides that he is happy again.

Like you, it runs in the family, not on my side, but on his dad's. All the males (his father, uncle and grand-father) exhibit exactly the same traits and for all of them, it has caused them problems at some point in their lives. Like you I have been worried about how this might impact on DS future. We have started conversations about it when he is calm and he is now aware of his behaviour and the impact it has. He says he doesn’t like getting angry but feels he can’t help it. I have reassured him that I would help him learn to control it. He has said that he takes it out on me because he knows it is safe to do so, because even though like you I certainly don’t give in to it, he knows that I will still love him.

What I have noticed is that his mood is directly affected with how tired he is, so ensuring he gets enough hours of sleep is essential. I do get the bad mood when I go in and say it is time to sleep, but it certainly helps during the day. I try as much as possible to set boundaries whilst still giving him freedom to take responsibility for the things he needs to do. He is very good with homework and I rarely have to remind him to do it or if I do he takes it well most of the time, but he is particularly bad with anything to do house chores.

One thing I have noticed too is that he is very passionate in his ways. He experiences things quite intensively and I think the anger goes with it. He is a high achiever and can get quite anxious about things, although he has got much better with it since he was a toddler. He goes through stages when this behaviour will be almost daily and it then really puts a strain between us, and other times when he can joke about it and he is the lovely and smiley boy I adore. Only yesterday, I was talking to a friend about how much energy it demands to cope with his moods and most likely will continue to do until he moves out of the house, which is a total contrast from his sister who has been self-disciplined ever since I can recall. My son also suffers from moments of low self-esteem which I think is linked.

My only advice is the one I try to stick to however hard it is, and that is not to give up to the tantrums. Stick to giving boundaries and to giving out the consequences. One day when I was really starting to feel totally worn out feeling that all I did was telling him off, he told me that his teacher had been mean making a promise and then revoking it. When I said that in that case I must be mean too, his genuine answer was ‘no, you’re not mean mummy, you’re fair, it’s just that I don’t always like it’. I knew then that I was doing the right thing and just need to continue persevering!

z.n

FBaby
Your DS is/was my DS (mine is 16 in a few weeks). IMO food helps- when hungry a teenage boy is highly volatile! Doesn't seem quite so important with my DD.

Morglin

Young girls are like teenage girls -awful.:eek:

But, to look on the bright side, she will grow, and you may be where I am now - listening to my (once awful) daughter (now the mum of a daughter) rave on about how awful little girls can be...:rotfl:

What goes around, comes around......:T

Lin

Slowly_does_it..

I have heard of similar reactions when people have eaten E numbers. A complete removal of chocolates, fancy biscuits, sweets etc from the house was drastic, but the boy calmed right down. Maybe look at DD's diet prior to her "red mist"? - I cant talk, I have a temper, and when my red mist rises, I cannot be reasoned with...

minimacka

z.n wrote: »

FBaby
Your DS is/was my DS (mine is 16 in a few weeks). IMO food helps- when hungry a teenage boy is highly volatile! Doesn't seem quite so important with my DD.

My hungry teenage boy is awful, he always apologises after he has eaten because he has usually been awful to me. lol

FBaby

z.n wrote: »

FBaby
Your DS is/was my DS (mine is 16 in a few weeks). IMO food helps- when hungry a teenage boy is highly volatile! Doesn't seem quite so important with my DD.

I haven't noticed a link with food. He rarely complains of starving and needing food NOW. If he does, he will have a fruit. I usually cook dinner when they ask me what I am cooking!

I have definitely noticed a link with lack of sleep though. He needs a lot of it and unfortunately is an early riser so rarely makes up going to bed later in the mornings, even during week-ends/holidays (when he is more likely to stay up later).

How is your boy now at 16 and how worse did it get thought the last 5 years?