Earthship Legal Issues

rogerblack

On a technical point - I will note that earth insulation basically sucks compared to proper insulation. (meeting or exceeding current building standards of 0.2W/m^2/C).
It works well only if you have it deep enough (>3m), and are content to live at the average temperature of the earth.
In some climates, this is just about ideal.
In the UK - not so much.
This is a map of the soil temperatures at 100m depth - these will be (very) slightly higher than the temperatures at ~5m where the temperature starts to even out annually.



(http://nora.nerc.ac.uk/14877/ )
You can see that unfortunately, for most of the UK, this doesn't really work.
The very hot spots are anomalies which are because geothermal at 100m at those places actually works.
But, you can see that most of the country is at 14C or below.
While you can indeed live year-round at that temperature, most people would add heating.
The earthships insulation once you actually add heating is quite poor, meaning you may actually need more heat than a 'normal' house.

warehouse

You hate society but embrace the internet for advice? Strange.

rash161

Thanks, that's useful.

I don't think the temperatures are that bad, especially if it's a worst case, do you know if these figures are pretty much the same annually or is this a snapshot of a specific time of the year?

I'm used to living in places where there's little difference between the temperature indoors and the temperature outdoors.

warehouse wrote: »

You hate society but embrace the internet for advice? Strange.

Yep, deal with it

MFW_ASAP

Is it half term again? Kids are never at school these days.

zeupater

rash161 wrote: »

Please elaborate, I'm interested in how you come to that assumption

Ok, this is the point, I disagree with the majority of what society does. I don't think there's anything moral or ethical about society.

It isn't "me, me, me", it's just not "you, you, you", why should I pay for you to do things that I think are morally and ethically wrong? I've told you, I want very little, I'm not asking to be given anything.

Nobody, and that's what people struggle to understand I think. No Gods, No Masters.

Hi

(I) "Assumption" - On the basis that our household total carbon footprint (http://carboncalculator.direct.gov.uk/index.html#/footprint) works out at <17% of the national average using a pretty straightforward set of measures and that overall we're neigh-on carbon neutral, grow a good proportion of our own fruit & veg and source what we can within a 3 mile radius .... if you're achieving better then fine, if not the premise stands.

(II) "I don't think there's anything moral or ethical about society" - Then you just think that its moral or ethical to - provide help and support to the mother giving birth, the child in infancy, the poor, the disabled, the vulnerable, those in poor health, those requiring education, the oppressed, the elderly, the infirm, the victims, the ....... There is an unwritten contract between the generations, between friends and between the local community - this is the bedrock of society and forms the foundation on which almost all forms of government are built.

(III) "It isn't "me, me, me"" - but that's exactly what comes across. You have seemingly chosen to break your own contract with society - having taken, a decision has been made to not repay - "I'm not asking to be given anything.", maybe you are really naïve enough to believe that, however, consider what society has already provided to date, including health, welfare, education and a reasonably safe environment to live .... for this you seem to be unwilling to live up to your end of the contract and return the debt you owe to the previous generation, the next generation, family, friends and others .... seems selfish in my view, so, to others, it definitely looks to be a "me, me, me" approach ...

(IV) "No Gods, No Masters" ? - I really love this ... another 'free thinking radical anarchistic activist' regurgitating a historical quotation which originated as moral requirement for equality under the law ... strange really to come up with this independently, but I suppose that the anarchy movement simply use this because it was a dictate from their leaders, sponsors - or was it an inclusive vote of all, or representatives of all (how anarchic is that then?) .... free thinking, or just the extreme views of those easily swayed ?

Come on, cut out the bovine excrement, ask the questions and listen for the answers. It's also pretty useful to always consider that when making a decision to go fly-fishing you're equipped with waders which are taller than the water is deep ...

HTH
Z

lstar337

zeupater wrote: »

(III) "It isn't "me, me, me"" - but that's exactly what comes across. You have seemingly chosen to break your own contract with society - having taken, a decision has been made to not repay - "I'm not asking to be given anything.", maybe you are really naïve enough to believe that, however, consider what society has already provided to date, including health, welfare, education and a reasonably safe environment to live .... for this you seem to be unwilling to live up to your end of the contract and return the debt you owe to the previous generation, the next generation, family, friends and others .... seems selfish in my view, so, to others, it definitely looks to be a "me, me, me" approach ...

Exactly what I meant by:

lstar337 wrote: »

So you just want to leech off the system until you get what you want and then opt-out. How ethical of you.

zeupater, your 'wordy' version is so much nicer.;)

zeupater

rash161 wrote: »

.... I don't think the temperatures are that bad, especially if it's a worst case, do you know if these figures are pretty much the same annually or is this a snapshot of a specific time of the year?

Hi

We have one of those "box shaped houses with a sloping roof on top", I know it's not what you're interested in, but it's high thermal mass and regulates the temperature well.

A good friend has a true passivhaus and we were fortunate enough to be invited by his architect to view what you would consider to be an 'eco-bling' property which had been covered in hundreds of tonnes of soil, topped with grass after being built .... the owner considered it to have improved over the two years it had been occupied, but it was said to be much more comfortable in the summer than winter ... there was an unheated part of the 'building' which formed a store/garage where the internal temperature varied between ~8C/9C in the winter and ~16C/17C in the summer .... for comparison our integral garage (high mass/insulated) has an almost identical range ....

HTH
Z

rogerblack

rash161 wrote: »

Thanks, that's useful.

I don't think the temperatures are that bad, especially if it's a worst case, do you know if these figures are pretty much the same annually or is this a snapshot of a specific time of the year?

The whole point of earthships is that you dig down far enough that the temperature is constant.
The temps in question are temperatures at 100m depth - so will not vary over hundreds of years.
But, these may be 1-2C over the temperature at 5m depth.

zeupater

rogerblack wrote: »

The whole point of earthships is that you dig down far enough that the temperature is constant.
The temps in question are temperatures at 100m depth - so will not vary over hundreds of years.
But, these may be 1-2C over the temperature at 5m depth.

Hi Roger

The problem being missed is that, like 'normal' dwellings, airtightness is a pretty major issue when considering heat-loss in a covered/underground property, but this being heavily influenced by the ability to disperse moisture from the environment. If you don't address the cost of tanking the structure correctly, there'll be a need to induce passive convective currents or install active extraction ... that's where the heat goes in the winter ... so £thousands on the cost, or not much heat efficiency benefit over a standard dwelling .... a major issue would also be heat replenishment over the summer, warm, moist air being 'pumped' into an underground chamber with cool, moist walls (?) .... there's a reason why caves and the cellars of old buildings in the UK climate smell damp and this is directly linked to why you don't come across many troglodytes on a daily basis .... I've seen the solution & unfortunately, it is expensive

HTH
Z

rash161

zeupater wrote: »

(I) "Assumption" - On the basis that our household total carbon footprint (http://carboncalculator.direct.gov.uk/index.html#/footprint) works out at <17% of the national average using a pretty straightforward set of measures and that overall we're neigh-on carbon neutral, grow a good proportion of our own fruit & veg and source what we can within a 3 mile radius .... if you're achieving better then fine, if not the premise stands.

I'd calculate mine if the site didn't require Flash...it's a .gov site so I'm not surprised that there's unethical, poor quality software in use. We don't use heating, don't use any chemicals, don't eat processed foods, don't use drugs (legal or illegal), grow as much as we can and walk wherever possible.

I haven't started with solar/wind yet, my next step will be to take one of the few electrical things that I have and run it from solar, get an idea for it then look at a full system.

zeupater wrote: »

(II) "I don't think there's anything moral or ethical about society" - Then you just think that its moral or ethical to - provide help and support to the mother giving birth, the child in infancy, the poor, the disabled, the vulnerable, those in poor health, those requiring education, the oppressed, the elderly, the infirm, the victims, the ....... There is an unwritten contract between the generations, between friends and between the local community - this is the bedrock of society and forms the foundation on which almost all forms of government are built.

Children were born for thousands of years without human intervention. People are in poor health because of capitalism. People are oppressed because of capitalism. State education is just indoctrination into the system.

zeupater wrote: »

(III) "It isn't "me, me, me"" - but that's exactly what comes across. You have seemingly chosen to break your own contract with society - having taken, a decision has been made to not repay - "I'm not asking to be given anything.", maybe you are really naïve enough to believe that, however, consider what society has already provided to date, including health, welfare, education and a reasonably safe environment to live .... for this you seem to be unwilling to live up to your end of the contract and return the debt you owe to the previous generation, the next generation, family, friends and others .... seems selfish in my view, so, to others, it definitely looks to be a "me, me, me" approach ...

Where is this contract that you speak of? There isn't one, because I haven't entered into any contract. Safe environment? We're constantly at risk from the government and their mercenaries, just look at their destructive, war mongering actions throughout the world.

zeupater wrote: »

(IV) "No Gods, No Masters" ? - I really love this ... another 'free thinking radical anarchistic activist' regurgitating a historical quotation which originated as moral requirement for equality under the law ... strange really to come up with this independently, but I suppose that the anarchy movement simply use this because it was a dictate from their leaders, sponsors - or was it an inclusive vote of all, or representatives of all (how anarchic is that then?) .... free thinking, or just the extreme views of those easily swayed ?

Doesn't matter where it came from, I'm using it now for my own purpose, if that upsets/offends/annoys you, bonus.

MFW_ASAP wrote: »

Is it half term again? Kids are never at school these days.

Isn't there some football thing on at the moment? Shouldn't you and the rest of the intellectually challenged population be drunk in a pub, crying about how "we" lost?

Really, the school holiday thing is such a pathetic argument, yet one of the really common typical arguments used by idiots that are incapable or too afraid of comprehending what they're responding to.